Did I really endow my spouse with all my worldly goods?

[scarletcharlottethefirst]

I owned something worth lots of money (£10,000) before I married.
I worked, paid for it myself and had lots of fun.

I am married now and sold the ‘something’ for lots of money.
My husband who is rational and otherwise ok thinks the money is now half his
As in “ all my worldly goods I thee endow “

We are not arguing over this as it’s just a technical discussion. But it’s a genuine query

Is he, in law, entitled to any share of my ‘something’ or the proceeds.

Depends on the length of the marriage. if you married yesterday, no. If you married some years ago, then possibly yes, why would he not have a claim to some of it?

Yes, and it was half his whilst you still owned it too.

Why would you make vows if you think they shouldn't count legally?

Endowing half your worldly goods is a lot better than it being completely one-sided, with the woman being a chattel that could be sold if necessary! I'm not sure an exact split is necessary while married as I'd consider the money to still be in the shared pot, but yes - everything shared.

Where in law is this written?

I seriously hadn’t given it any thought before now. We never talked about it. I’d owned it for 15 years before we met. We got married within a few months of meeting, a quick registry office do. It was all very romantic and logic played no part. I was so loved up I would have said he could call me a potato and not have noticed. I have no idea what I really said! A marriage certificate doesn’t give a copy of the vows. I find it staggering that I’m so clueless.

I look back now and think I could have had a prenuptial agreement but as I said it’s a technical argument. We have a joint account so if he wanted the money he could have it.

I think I assumed that everything since we got together is 50/50 but I didn’t want 50% of his stuff that he owned before we were together as that was his.

I think I’m just uncomfortable with the idea of not having control of my stuff.

I thought that anything you brought to the marriage became an asset of the marriage, i.e. it belongs to both of you equally. Same with debts - aren't you jointly liable too?

wobytide I don't see how the length of marriage makes a difference, either you are married or you aren't.

In a short marriage you take back out what you came in with. That's where religion and law differ. Also the reason why pre-nuptial agreements aren't quite what people expect them to be

If you had money prior to being married that is rightfully still just yours. Anything that was added or earned when you are married is jointly split. That's what I was told in my divorce. (Scotland)

If you divorce everything is on the table. If you can't agree how to divide it a judge will, looking at your respective needs, needs of children, length of marriage. Who owns what is secondary. Why do you think wealthy families tie themselves in knots with trusts etc when their kids marry? And even those don't necessarily work. Getting married is a massive deal legally.

This is why MN advises women to get married! Based on the assumption that, in the event of a split, the woman is more likely to be primary carer for the kids. Financial protection is a huge part of getting married.

In my own case, DH and I were in the process of buying a house when we got engaged. I was putting in more of the deposit, so I was keen to get a lawyer involved to ring fence my contribution. But as soon as we got engaged I didn’t care about that any more as I considered all finances joint.

Hmm I do get where you're coming from. If my husband sold a watch for £10k that he'd bought when he was single I'd not expect half the money from the sale.

I would expect a conversation about what he wanted to do with the money he'd got for it though and depending on what was a priority for us as a family hope he'd choose to do something part sensible with it.

It does make me think though how it works when one spouse gets an inheritance- I wouldn't automatically assume that it was half mine.

If I get an inheritance I’d expect to share it with DH. We’ve been together 20 years and have completely shared finances.

I was a homeowner when we got married. My husband now has half the equity in it. That day he gained an awful lot of money with no contribution at all (we didn't live together). To be fair, he's paid mortgage payments in entirety since 2014 and will continue to (by himself) until 2022, so... Swings and roundabouts.

But yeah, if we had got divorced, he'd walk off with £100k of "my" money, no questions asked.

Is your relationship ok, OP? this is purely theoretical?

You probably didn’t. Traditional vows are that the husband endows with all his worldly goods. I remind my husband of that frequently. The vows were written at a time when women rarely owned much in the way of worldly goods.
It comes from 1928 Book of Common Prayer and was only said when the man put the ring on his intended’s finger.

justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/Marriage.htm

The only time this really matters is when it comes to divorce, in which case you will quickly find that the law considers everything the joint property of the marriage. Can come as a nasty shock.

OP, if you had your 10k in a bank account in your name alone, the bank wouldn't just hand over 5k to him on the grounds that you are married. So in that sense, legally the money remains yours. But if you were to divorce, the court could potentially make you give him half of it depending on your circumstances.
An inheritance is not considered a joint asset legally, unless used to purchase a family home, in which case the spouse is deemed to have acquired a stake in it.

So legally speaking, marriage opens up the possibility of having to share what was solely yours, but there are no hard and fast rules about exact amounts because it hinges on individual circumstances.

That said, you have made a moral vow which joins you legally. It seems strange to me to make those vows and continue to feel so separate.

Crumbs You are out by about 250 years. It's actually from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, as that version of the Marriage service has obey in the vows for women. I should know, that's the version used st my wedding....however, anything dh has that was his before marriage, or that he has bought, like his boys toys, are his. If he sells them, he can do what he,wants with the money, even if it means another sports car.

Anything you own is still legally yours. You can dispose of it without his consent and do whatever you want with the proceeds. However, if you divorce it all goes into the pot to be split between you. Everything owned by either of you is classed as an asset of the marriage.

Crumbs You are out by about 250 years. It's actually from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, as that version of the Marriage service has obey in the vows for women.

Its also the old CoE version, not the RC wedding ceremony (current or when my DM got married over 60 yrs ago) which I'd expect someone who married in CoE to know.

which should of course say: "someone who married in RC to know"

Everything fine in the marriage. Thanks!
It’s hypothetical. The cash is in the joint bank account pending buying a caravan ( dont laugh)

I just thought I was right legally and he was wrong.
If I had put the sales proceeds in my single name I think I would have been legally entitled to do so.

My stuff is mine and his is his.

Imagine if I wanted to sell my clothes on EBay? I’d need his permission. Same sort of thing, just smaller financially

I’m hoping @prh47bridge is the correct response.

But I’m still surprised I don’t know what I said when I got married. Even if in this instance it doesn’t matter.

Take this as a scenario.
DH has money at the time of marriage (say 10k to follow your numbers)
During marriage, DW earns significantly more than DH (mainly to different earning potential rather than decisions taken for the benefit of the family to take that out of the equation). Say on divorce, couple have100k savings as a result of DW''s higher earnings.

If they split, is it really fair that DH gets to keep his 10k plus half of the 100k?

(This would be my scenario if I got divorced - not those numbers!). I have no difficulty in principle with the idea that the starting point should be that the 100k should be split but i must admit i would have more difficulty if he got to keep all of the 10k as well.

BTW, you would be entitled to put the proceeds in your name, it is not the case that all assets are treated as jointly owned, it is just that on divorce the starting position would be a 50:50 split of the total.

BTW, you would be entitled to put the proceeds in your name, it is not the case that all assets are treated as jointly owned throughout the life of the marriage, it is just that on divorce the starting position would be a 50:50 split of the total.

It's the pensions that's a problem at the moment. I'm divorcing my "d"h due to his behaviour (a crime that's so bad he may go to prison for it and is banned from the house). If I have to reward him with half my pension pot I will think the law is mad. But it looks like that may be the case. It won't be reciprocated as he has no significant assets. He will really struggle to get contact with us or work again so I will be raising our kids single handedly both practically and financially. I agree in principle with 50:50 but sometimes there needs to be common sense.

Hmm I don't think I would expect half the cash value given to me. But I don't know the ins and outs of your marriage and how things have gone before, I.e has he done the same for you in the past?
Usually I believe that marital money should really be joint. Not necessarily in the same bank account but in the case of something like this the majority of the money could go towards something a bit more joint like going out, car, house, holiday, kids? And then maybe a little more spends for you so you don't feel hard done by (if the choice to sell was difficult).
But it really depends on what your marriage is like, what has happened previously and what you have decided between you. As one size rules don't fit all.