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Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Mumsnet Massive and legal eagles among you. Please help me and my DF.

34 replies

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 19:59

I'm really, really at my wits end, angry, frustrated and worried. It's kind of an update and another plea this time for anyone with legal knowledge who can tell me what to do next and preferably what CAN be done to end this property boundary debacle which has cost almost £10,000 in legal fees and 3 years of anxiety to my very elderly DF. And it's still not over.

I had a thread here about this but it's gone over the 90 day limit so I can't link, but it was titled something like "Will the mumsnet massive get behind me and DF, we're in court tomorrow". I had lots of lovely and helpful replies and advice and yes, there was a diagram.

But here we are, still. We have a Tomlin Order. The next door neighbours have signed and had witnessed their agreement to the boundary line which gives back, effectively, the bit of driveway which was his in the first place before the next door neighbour did a 'land grab' literally during the night.

I won't go into the long, long, complicated and endless delays and barriers that have been put up by these people but I'm sure you get the picture. But we eventually reached agreement after a judge at a first hearing ordered a mediated agreement.

The next door neighbours have recently paid their share of almost £1000 of the court costs of the order and land registry fees. The Tomlin Order specified the fence be taken down and the area of my DF's drive be put back the way it was (at their cost) by 16th August. All lovely.

The fence is still standing. They wrote a letter to my DF late on the Friday before Bank Holiday weekend and put it through his door too late for him to contact his solicitor, saying they might take it down last week of September 'weather permitting'. I was speechless with anger, my DF totally bemused and very confused about everything. My DF's solicitor seems to think his job is done. He wrote back a letter to the neighbour saying they should have taken it down by 16th August and to take it down sooner than they're saying.

They've ignored the letter. My DF is ailing through the stress.
I don't know what to do. The solicitor agreed the last bit of the mediated agreement would be for a fixed fee of £1000 each from my DF and the NDN. My DF already paid up front costs of £9000 because it was going to court. I feel like my DF has been left to the whims of this family who aren't going to do what the Court Order says, and that being the case it is not worth the paper it's written on. And it took 3 years.

Does ANYONE know what happens if they don't take it down? Do we get another new law firm involved and have to pay yet more money (that my DF now doesn't really have, this was his savings) just to be strung along for another year?

Thank you in advance. BTW if @nauticant is out there still, your thoughts would be much appreciated.

OP posts:
LoudestRoar · 12/09/2017 20:12

No idea wisey but I remember your original thread. Giving you a hopeful bump that someone can help

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 20:15

I should have known better than to post when GBBO is one Grin

Thanks Loudest.

OP posts:
Horsemad · 12/09/2017 20:45

Bump.

eurochick · 12/09/2017 20:50

If they don't comply with the order, yes you would need to go back to court. Property law isn't my area but I'd expect the court to make an order saying unless they take the fence down by x date there will be y sanction. You can be held in contempt of court (which is an imprisonable offence) but that is very rare and would be a last, last resort.

Hopefully some property lawyers will be along in a minute.

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 20:58

Thanks euro, I'm hoping that if the fence isn't down by the end of the week they've said they might take it down (although I think they'll say it was too hot/too cold/too wet/dry/windy/dark/bright/someone had a headache........Hmm

I want to know if we can just apply direct to the court for an enforcement, and if the last letter sent to the neighbour telling them they should have complied before now would count as a warning from a judicial perspective. Just feel so powerless.

OP posts:
HaudYerWheeshtBawbag · 12/09/2017 21:15

can you not pay to get someone to take it down? would that not be easier?

chocolatepudandchocolatesauce · 12/09/2017 21:17

Why cant your dad just take the fence down and reinstate the boundary? He could return the fence panels to them and do it as carefully as possible to cause as least damage as possible. The fence is on his land and they have past the deadline..... Would he get in trouble if he were to do this?

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:17

No, by a strange quirk of the law, we would be committing criminal damage by taking the fence down. And the neighbour knows that.

OP posts:
chocolatepudandchocolatesauce · 12/09/2017 21:17

Cross post with Haud

chocolatepudandchocolatesauce · 12/09/2017 21:18

But realistically would he be prosecuted?

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:22

This neighbour would be the first person to instigate action against my DF which is why this is all so maddening that we have followed the legal advice and done absolutely everything by the book.

These people are the kind who are goady in the extreme and who will claim victim status at any opportunity. Believe me. Three years of them and I know what would happen. Plus we've had legal advice, documented.

OP posts:
Manclife · 12/09/2017 21:24

Possibly if he complained to the police. However if DF was out when it happens....Wink

Butterymuffin · 12/09/2017 21:29

If you're in an area affected by Storm Aileen I'd be inclined to sneak out and yank the fence panels a bit to help Aileen along. Nothing can be said about storm damage, can it?

WillowWeeping · 12/09/2017 21:31

I'm not a property lawyer but I used to to practice as a criminal lawyer.

If it was my "very elderly" father I'd tell him to take the fence down (or get someone else to do it).

Realistically there is very little that is going to happen to him.

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:35

Buttery thankfully not.

I've had many different and imaginative ways of settling this and none of them involve a nice cup of tea and a friendly chat. I actually hate these people for knowingly causing an elderly man such angst - just because they can.

Believe me if we were able to just take it down ourselves without fear of any legal repercussions we'd have done it by now. But I'm not prepared to make a single mistake that could turn the whole thing around.

OP posts:
aliceinwanderland · 12/09/2017 21:35

I think you would get a mandatory injunction to enforce the tom lin order. Or possibly get a baliffs order to enforce. Realistically though if they have said they will take it down at the end of September I am not sure you would get much benefit enforcing it before then. You might want to speak to the court officials to see if they can advise.

akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:36

He's 84. That's very elderly to me. Is old age a matter for leniency in such cases?

OP posts:
akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:38

And the solicitor was reluctant to go to a final hearing because my DF would make a poor witness due to his capacity being inconsistent and his memory is poor. He isn't diagnosed (yet) but I know what is happening.

OP posts:
akaWisey · 12/09/2017 21:40

Alice that's what I've been thinking too. They've said end September and that's what we have to wait for.

OP posts:
ILoveScrabble · 12/09/2017 21:43

I read your old thread. I'm so sorry this is still going on. No advice but FlowersFlowers

Valentine2 · 12/09/2017 21:48

Could you start a garden decoration project on a rather big scale and accidentally hit the fence with a digger?
Sorry. Not much help. But I am angry on your behalf. Who does that to their 84 year old neighbour?

WillowWeeping · 12/09/2017 22:33

I can't of course give legal advice and no one should condone breaking the law....

The CPS may only pursue criminal cases where there is a public interest in doing so. Given the age of your father and health issues it's virtually impossible to imagine a case like this being prosecuted.

Frankly even without his age and health I think a prosecution would be very unlikely, although couldn't rule out an arrest for the police to interview.

aliceinwanderland · 12/09/2017 22:41

It's quite possible that the police wouldn't do anything. And if there is a court order in your favour you may even have a defence to a criminal charge (although I am not a criminal lawyer) but I think with tricky neighbours and your father's age you want to keep the moral high ground. You also don't want the hassle of them being even more difficult if you take the fence down

Manclife · 12/09/2017 22:43

You would t have a defence and even if the police didn't take it any further a crime would be created with you shown as the offender. This could be disclosed during a DBS check.

Manclife · 12/09/2017 22:43

*wouldn't have a defence.