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High Court Enforcement against a Debtor Who Doesn't Live Here

14 replies

countingkids123 · 07/08/2017 13:18

In need of a bit of advice. I'll give the back story...

About 18 months ago a long standing friend called saying he was going to be evicted in the morning and could I take his cat in. Don't worry, he said, he had something sorted for himself but she (the cat) was too old to hand over to a charity and he didn't want to risk her being put to sleep due to her age. She was also unwell but lived with us for a few months and was happy during our time with us and only went downhill the day before she passed away. Myself and DH told our friend that we were concerned and please consider coming to ours. The next day he accepted our offer and said it would be for a maximum of 6 months until he got back on his feet. We helped him find a job and eventually a room in an HMO, but he was with us for a year.

So, regarding the eviction. He was a local authority tenant. He was entitled to help with rent and council tax. He found a job and updated the council of his change in circumstances. He then found out that the job he thought was permanent was actually only holiday cover and the advert in the job centre had been misleading him. After 2 weeks, he was back where he started. He is convinced he told the council of his change in circumstances again, and reapplied for his benefits. He is sure he had letters of acknowledgement but didn't keep them because he felt everything was being dealt with. Then we receive a phone call saying he's being evicted in the morning.

Now, whether he is confused or not about the benefits situation is history and to be honest, I'm not overly interested now based on where we are in this whole process.

At the end of May / start of June, we received a knock on the door from 2 burly men just before 7am. DH answered the door and he was informed they were looking for our friend. One looked like a police officer (I was flustered so didn't really take it all in), and the other, doing all the talking, was dressed in black with a badge that said HCEO and he had a bodycam. We told them our friend doesn't live here, and DH was asked to show ID to prove he wasn't our friend. We also showed them a copy of our council tax bill to show liability in that respect. We gave them our friends current address and they went away. At that point, we did not know what they were calling in relation to and they did not show us any paperwork. We have never dealt with people like this before so were unaware that they should never be invited in (which DH did while he went to find his ID).

Our friend hasn't had his mail forwarded, so what has been turning up here has just been passed on to him, either by me putting his forwarding address on the envelope or by popping it through his letterbox when it's been convenient for me to do so.

Then a letter from his previous local authority arrives, so I phone them and say he doesn't live there and gave his new address. They refused to talk about him as I couldn't give them his account number and obviously don't sound like a man. I asked him to update his contact details with them and he said he had done.

End of last month a letter arrived with a stamp on the front saying if you are not the addressee please phone this number. I googled the return address on the envelope and it's the Sherriff's Office, which according to their website are a company of High Court Enforcement Officers. I called them, said he did not live here and hadn't lived here since the end of March / start of April. They asked for a reference number which I could just about make out by wriggling the window of the envelope around. I explained I can only prove who does live here, but how do I prove a negative (ie: that someone doesn't live here)? I was instructed to email a copy of my council tax bill to their email address, and they will forward it to their client. I did this that same day.

DH opened the letter by mistake that evening, mistakenly assuming it was for him. It was a notice of enforcement for a CCJ decision in August 2015. It details the decision number, and says it has been transferred up to the High Court. The HCEO's name is detailed, but no high court judgement number. We figured that because I've emailed the Sheriff's Office, nothing more should be needed. We've given the notice to our friend but kept a copy for our own records. Again, we've asked him to make sure his details are correct with his ex local authority and make sure payslips and bank statements are sent to his new address, because even though he was never on the electoral roll here he has obviously established enough of a link to our address to enable him to be traced.

I've checked my credit file and it's unaffected. DH has done the same. We are not concerned in that respect as we understand that debts follow the person and not the address. Also, we have no financial link with him as we never asked for rent nor had any tenancy agreement with him. We just did not want to see him living on the streets.

This seems to have come back to bite us because despite being a friend for 20yrs he's admitted he doesn't want to update his address details because he doesn't want to be found. He's happy enough to leave this at our doorstep for us to deal with. In the meantime, all reasonable evidence of his whereabout points to our house.

A second letter arrived from the Sheriff's Office last week, again with the same reference number visible through the envelope window. I've phoned them, told them the same story as before. Basically the man at the other end of the phone sounded very bored, as though he hears it all the time and doesn't believe a word I say.

When DH returned from work he said sod it, I don't care if you're not supposed to open mail addressed to someone else and even though we know where our 'friend' is, he's not acting as a friend should after everything we've done for him. The letter is basically a reissue of the first notice of enforcement with a date of 3rd August, for the same amount with more interest added.

This is causing me real concern because:

a) The HCEO's have been informed that the person they are mailing does not reside here;
b) The local authority instructing them to enforce the debt have ignored notice from us that he does not live here;
c) While he's in no hurry to update his address details with his bank, he continues to maintain a link with our address which, IMO, in the absence of any evidence otherwise could be construed to be reasonable belief that an enforcement officer would be following correct procedures in attending our property.

I know, at the moment it is just a notice of enforcement coming here. I don't want it to go any further with a notice of attendance. It is the school holidays and I will be away next week with the children and DH will be at work. What happens if there is no one at home if / when someone pays a visit? Our house is unusual in that access to the garden is open and I don't want anyone making a list of garden items which could be added to a controlled goods agreement; and I don't even know if items in the garden could be taken control of in our absence? Aside from our cars (which our registered in our names) which we have evidence of ownership of, we cannot prove anything else is ours. We are not particularly well off in terms of items in the house (the TV is at least 20yrs old) as all our money goes on our mortgage, bills and stopping the house falling down (beautiful listed property neglected by previous owners so we are trying, slowly, to halt the decay and bring it back to how it should be). So we don't have any receipts for items to prove we own them.

A bank statement arrived last week so rather than forwarding it on, DH has had enough and gone into the branch to say he hasn't lived here for months and please could they stop sending mail to him here. He did provide the forwarding address but the bank said they can't update their records without the account holder authorising them to do so, but they would put a stop on his account forcing him to go in to a branch and deal with it. But will that still mean there is a link to our address in the meantime?

He's never been on the electoral roll at our address but my understanding is that to get him on the roll at his new address needs either him to add himself or a housemate? Is that correct?

I just want to put a stop to this, and don't really know how. The local authority concerned won't talk to me as it's a matter regarding someone else. They are instructing the enforcement officers, but if they won't listen to us telling them he doesn't live here, why would they call the enforcement officers off?

Is it some kind of fraud to continue having mail addressed to an old address if the intention is to avoid being found, eg: avoidance of debt? Should I talk to the police? What else can I do?

OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 07/08/2017 13:22

You should just be returning everything unopened to the post office marked NOT AT THIS ADDRESS.

worridmum · 07/08/2017 13:55

And dont let them into your house because it then becomes the game of you proving stuff is yours then them proving its his

countingkids123 · 07/08/2017 13:59

We've definitely started to do that and I've told DH to not let anyone in and to record all conversations on his mobile if they turn up while I'm away, and also to make sure that he gets their names.

But ideally we want to stop anyone from turning up. And to stop the letters too.

Can they force entry when enforcing a high court judgement? The back of the enforcement notice states costs of a locksmith will be charged to the debtor at that stage

OP posts:
OddBoots · 07/08/2017 14:09

Have you watched 'Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away!' on C5? That follows HCEOs in their jobs.

When they are from the high court they can force entry but they can't take anything you can prove (with receipts) doesn't belong to the person on the order. I know that being on TV might change things but they always seem quite reasonable.
Your mistake has been in facilitating him to have post sent to your address by delivering it on to him, you really must send back any post addressed to him.

OddBoots · 07/08/2017 14:10

I don;t think it could be counted as fraud as you have been helping him do it by delivering on the mail to him.

Evilstepmum01 · 07/08/2017 14:17

Oh dear. We had this with DH's ex wife sending her debt to our address. She even put the council tax at her new address in DH's name! They then tried to chase him for two loads of council tax!
Luckily we were able to resolve it before it got too far but when the debt collectors arrived, we simply proved our tenancy, showed council tax bills and gave them her new address.
We're in Scotland so it may be different, but if you;ve already proven that the property is yours and shown council tax to prove this, then I believe that legally, they are not permitted to enter your property.
Might I suggest you go to the CAB for advice and keep a copy of your documents near the door. If anyone does attempt to force entry, call the police.
Hope you get it sorted out.

Lucysky2017 · 07/08/2017 14:41

High court can force entry. I would have by the door all the written evidence of the fact he does not live there and the kind of items they might seize have documents read eg your car documents, have them in a folder by the door and if anything else is valuable eg a new lap top or mobile I would have a record by the door of who owns it.
I would also type a short special delivery letter with the case reference on to the enforcement agent saying you have taken legal advice, this person has no connection to your address even if he has lied to say he does, that he does not live here and nothing in the house is his and that any future contact to your address will be harrassment. Keep a copy. You could try forwarding his address on to them again and/or also let them know he is deliberately not telling you his very latest address but that that is not your fault. I fyou had his latest address you would pass it on.

aginghippy · 07/08/2017 14:49

Do you know which court has issued the CCJ? Does it give the court name on the notice of enforcement?

When I had a similar problem in the past, I got in touch with the court, explained the situation and gave them the person's new address. It worked for me.

countingkids123 · 07/08/2017 16:09

Thank you. I feel we've acted in good faith in giving someone we viewed as a friend a roof over his head, helping him get back in his feet as he had no bills or rent to contribute to, and when he was dragging his feet about viewing flats I had found for him I found an HMO. I now understand the reason he did not want a flat would have been because he would have been liable for utilities and council tax, and therefore easily traceable; whereas in an HMO everything is paid for him. Most people arrange a redirection when moving, but I saw nothing wrong with forwarding his mail to him while he sorted out notifying banks etc of his change of address. I obviously have mug written all over my face!

The enforcement notice says both the county court and high court judgements were made in Liverpool. I've got his address, so I will write to the court in Liverpool and give them that information. I will send a copy to the Sheriff's office and I guess I should send a copy to the local authority involved? The LA have so far taken no obvious action based on telephone calls to them.

I guess he thought that not being on the electoral roll here meant that he wouldn't be traceable.

So V5s for the cars, council tax statement.

What else?

mortgage statement in our joint names?
We don't have a receipt for the TV due to it's age. It's analogue so would it even be considered?
The laptop is also approximately 5yrs old and I have no idea where the receipt for that is.
The sofa is about 8yrs old but could that be taken?
The only other thing perhaps of value would be the oven but even that is 12yrs old and I don't think it could be construed as being of any worth.
Everything else we have belongs to the children; their bikes (all very obviously 2nd hand), and scooters (imitation micro scooters) etc.

Lucysky, I think that sounds sensible. Would it be correct to state that future correspondence addressed to him at our address would constitute harassment. Part of me feels this is correct, especially as both the enforcement officers and the local authority have been informed twice now, and failed to act on that information.

OP posts:
LucieLucie · 07/08/2017 16:41

Given that enforcement action is likely to be imminent at your address, I'd recommend you laminate a STOP notice to your front door.

Address it to the court and include court representatives stating the subject doesn't live there, date he left, his full forwarding address, place of work (if applicable) his phone number and what car (if any) he drives.

Detail all attempts you have made to inform authorities including dates.

Hopefully that will be enough to at least stop them forcing entry.

Citizens Advice may be a good place to go for legal advice.

Allthebestnamesareused · 08/08/2017 10:45

Just give them his address! Send letters back saying he has moved to this address.

Thesingingtoad · 08/08/2017 11:01

No good deed goes unpunished!

Lucysky2017 · 08/08/2017 13:07

I don't think he's given his address. I like the idea of the STOP notice on the door.
The baillifs are only interested in things they can easily sell like cars not on finance, new lap tops, phones, expensive work equipment. Sofas are not saleable - it's ridiculous. We cleared my parents house when they died and things I thought might fetch quite a bit like a real leather sofa had no value. When I took other stuff to the tip recently the bin men wanted 3 bikes and garden tools but none of the furniture at all - apparently people just buy new these days. I suppose they would want things like designer handbags - basically anything you could easily sell. Gold. Some of my silly neighbours have £100,000 of gold jewellery at home - the police have had to issue notices about it as it's so risky and burglars target them.

cdtaylornats · 08/08/2017 14:19

High Court Enforcement officers can only force entry to business premises. They can enter homes only through open doors or windows.

If they persist get a solicitor to send the company a letter copied to the High Court explaining the situation, telling them to desist or you will take action for harassment and inform the High Court that they are harassing you.

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