Tenancy succession and eviction.

[Lostatsee]

Love some advice on this as I'm still none the wiser as to my situation. Been to see CAB and a solicitor but not getting anywhere. Lost my mother in April, I was her carer and Son. She was a secure tenant. I have it in writing from the council I have a legal right to succeed the tenancy but are refusing to give me the tenancy while I occupy this one, only another property. It's currently under occupied by two bedrooms, it's a three bedroom semi. Theyve given me points to bid on other one bedroom places but nothing has come up that looks suitable considering I've lived where I have for 20 out of the last 26 years. I understand the council's position but it doesn't help me. I have a dog who was my mother's and I'm not giving him up. It's not fair on him, he's 14 and been through enough this year. My question is: where do I stand legally should the council seek to evict me from here? Would I be classed as an occupier or tenant in the eyes of the court and where would that leave me in regards to what could happen if they decide in favour of the council. I'd like to consider right to buy one day and wonder how my current status affects moving into a new property. For example housing association properties.

Im really surprised CAB and a solicitor havent helped you.

As a secure tenancy, it should be exactly that, and as you say youve the right to have the secure tenancy passed to you. Irrespective of bedrooms.

Defo one for the CAB (dont bother with their website, they only give general short term tenancy advice on there for rental properties) and ask to make an appointment with their legal advisor/solicitor. (Rather than just the general advisor on the desk)
He/she may only hold 1 or 2 sessions a week, but that will then be with a solicitor who knows your local councils procedures too. Go prepared and take any documentation you have with you.

Hows the rent being paid?

Sorry for your loss by the way.

Have you tried Shelter for advice?

Could you take in a lodger so that it's not under-occupied? .

Could the property be adapted, without major structural work, to provide 2 dwellings rather than one?

Have you looked on council house swap sites - I bet there are families in a 1 bed who have been waiting for a 3-bed for years.

I do sympathise with your situation but it's also obviously not right for a single man to have a 3 bed council house when there are so many families in desperately overcrowded situations.

I'm not a tenant. Legally speaking I'm an occupier. Theyve emailed me saying I can succeed but in another property. I've been to see CAB and a solicitor. They are advising me but it isn't really clearing up the questions I asked above. I can't find anything about it anywhere, hence asking here.

I am aware of all this thanks. Where it gets murky is my current legal status as 'occupier'. Although the council has agreed to allow me to succeed the tenancy they won't do this on this property. What I don't understand is how this would affect my case should they evict.

No it doesn't change the situation already asked, no again, it's not that big. And ill have a look, hadn't thought of that but seeing as I don't have a tenancy here I'm not sure that would apply to my situation.

I actually agree with you the house is too big. However, no more than 300 yards from this house a disabled purpose built 3 bed bungalow is being under occupied by a man and his partner. She works at the council, go figure. He was allowed to stay when his mother and disabled sister passed away. I don't begrudge him leniency, I'd just like a bit of parity in the decision making considering he didn't even meet the conditions for succession. He moved back months before they died.

Yes, the CAB and a solicitor.

Apologies, in answer to your question I'm protected with full housing benefit because of the bereavement. I'm currently out of work.

Sorry for the loss of your mother.

Who is telling you that you are currently "legally speaking an occupier?".

That's not the way it works. If you have a legal right to succeed, then you succeed on the death of the former tenant. So you become the tenant of that property, whatever the council say.

If you succeed to a property which is under-occupied, then as pp said, there is a window of opportunity during which the council can give you notice to leave that place on the basis that they must offer you somewhere else.

If any of these ingredients are disputed - whether you were eligible to succeed, whether the property is under occupied, whether the alternative accommodation is reasonably suitable - then the court can decide.

So I suppose that from the council's point of view, they might be saying that they only regard you as an 'occupier' because they intend that you should have a tenancy of somewhere else. They are wrong. You are the tenant of your late mother's property, but the council do not want to put the paperwork into your name because they regard you as under occupying.

For RTB eligibility, your status as a tenant starts from the moment of succession.

Thanks for the reply and condolences. Answered everything clearly.

As to your question. The council are saying this in letter headings. They've confirmed it by email saying they won't grant me a tenancy at this property only another property. As you said it shouldn't be up to them. Reading up on housing law this is known as 'operation of law', correct?

What I'm trying to find out is this:

Is it possible to request a tenancy now and - if they refuse - take them to court to force the issue. Do my rights change or are they better if I also have a tenancy here?

Yes you are correct about 'operation of law'. The council cannot 'grant' you - or anyone else - a tenancy of the property if you have already succeeded to it, nor can they 'refuse to grant' one.

So I am not sure that I follow your last questions.

If you have a tenancy, you have it, regardless of what the council's records say. But obviously there may come a time when you would need to prove it, so it would be desirable to have proper recognition of your status by your name appearing on the documents and the council's own records, if that is what you mean by requesting a tenancy now.

You could ask the council to acknowledge that you are the tenant, and if they refuse, take them to court asking for a declaration about your status.

But this, of course, might just remind them about the 'window of opportunity', and tactically it might be better to hold back from doing this until the date has passed and the window has closed.

It is possible that the points system for bidding would play better in your favour if you are recognised by the system as being an existing tenant, but this depends on the individual system. You might want to seek specialist advice from Shelter or your solicitor about this.

As to your rights if they took you to court. If you have succeeded to the tenancy, then you are a secure tenant, and you can only be evicted if the council prove one of the statutory grounds under the Housing Act.

These include rent arrears, bad behaviour, etc etc, but they also include a specific ground for eviction where the tenant has succeeded and has been given notice of under-occupation within the specified time period (and suitable alternative accommodation has been offered). So, as the council have admitted your right to succeed, your status in court proceedings must be that of a tenant.

Thanks again, I've attached two emails from the council outlining their position.

As far as I am aware I've had nothing from the council confirming I'm a tenant. Letters from the council are titled 'occupier/executor estate'. As you can see from the emails they are saying they won't give me a tenancy till I've left the property, which is what I'm struggling to understand.

Theyve given me maximum points to bid on properties within a 6 month windows. I've attached the letter too.

I don't think not having a declaration will help. Judging from their tone they want me out yesterday. Which is why I'm trying to get some clarity to my situation.

I'm not averse to moving into another property. Quite the opposite, but this has been my family home for 20 out of the last 26 years. The places that I can bid on are not in very nice areas, run down, drug dealing, etc. The ones I've seen that are okay are housing association but wouldn't allow me right to buy rights if my tenancy isn't resolved before I moved in, correct?

Been to a solicitor and CAB and you've given me more useful information than either if them did, so thanks. I'm going to call shelter again this afternoon. Thanks again.

Hi Lostatsee, Sorry to hear about the loss of your mum. I was in a similar position to you after the death of my parent.

I see in the email that the council have said that you are able to succeed the tenancy.

Have you actually signed the succession form?

I only ask as it doesn't appear that they've granted a sucession of the tenancy as of yet. This would explain why they refer to you as an occupier.

If you move to a housing association it would appear you lose your right to buy but you may have the right to acquire.

righttobuy.gov.uk/am-i-eligible/housing-association-tenants/

In terms of the bidding on new properties you don't have to bid on the ones in bad areas however you maybe contacted by the council if they don't see you bidding.

Make sure to log in to your account regularly and keep a log of this. Bid on any properties you actually want to move to if you want to move.

If you don't want to move. Don't do anything, pay the rent and wait til the council serve notice for you to leave which would at its earliest be approx this September.

Hope you get the issue resolved. Best wishes.

Hi there and thanks,

Thanks to everyone who has helped thus far.

To your question, it's a no on that front. I can't think why they'd behave in this manner. It doesn't appear I have any more rights even if I had signed a form.

How did you get on, if you don't mind me asking.

Do you think it's wise doing nothing? I have a number of points and wonder whether it's worth the trouble. It was my mum's house and our family grew up here but I understand it would help others. It's a gamble not doing anything and potentially ending up with nothing.

Hello. Once you've signed the succession form you've officially succeeded the tenancy and that gives you more rights than if you're classed as an occupier or an introductory tenant. Here is a link explaining tenancy types:
www.gov.uk/council-housing/types-of-tenancy

The council have acknowledged that you are able to succeed the tenancy so you should have a secure tenancy.

In my case I got to keep the house and but it took almost a year of court action as the council challenged my succession.

You won't end up with nothing if you don't bid. What would happen is the council would apply to evict you due to under occupation but only 6-12 months after the death and they must offer alternative accommodation.

So you could if you wished do nothing and wait and see what happens. Once the 12 months has expired you'd be able to stay in the property.

If you're anxious about doing nothing you can continue to look for properties to bid on and if successful your tenancy would transfer.

Hi,,,

Thanks again, I'm familiar with the tenancy types. This is what I can't work out. They're refusing to give me a tenancy at this address. They've accepted I can succeed my mother's tenancy, but at another property only.

I could challenge this in court and force them to recognise me as a tenant but the Gentleman above said this maybe unwise.

I'm not sure how it would change my rights if they've already agreed I can succeed it. It's not their choice, it should happen by operation of law anyway.

Apologies for being nosey but any further information could help immeasurably. Was your house under occupied and by how many rooms? Mine is a three bedroom and it's just me at present. You don't have any special requirements, etc that would exempt you from under occupation rules?

It's not that I'd be left with nothing so to speak that worries me. It's not having a choice in where I go. Where as now I can bid online. Believe me, I want to stay but just don't seem to getting any positive direction as to how I may do this. Your the first person so far. Everything else has pointed towards give up. LOL

Hi. I don't believe the council can do that legally. If they accept you can succeed your mothers tenancy. You can succeed. They can request that you leave but only after 6 months and no later than 12 months.

It appears that you have succeeded but that they don't want to want you confirm the succession in writing at your current address in attempt perhaps to encourage you to move.

How are you paying rent for the property? Do you have proof of how much the rent is and to who you pay it?

My property is a 3 bed is under occupied by one room. I was not exempt from under occupation rules.

However the council struggled to find suitable alternative accommodation.

It will be a uphill battle to stay but it is possible. Yes I agree with Triavata that it would not be a good idea to challenge them in court to prove you are a tenant as it will draw attention to your situation.

You're under no obligation to bid for anything. It will then basically become a waiting game to see whether the council will serve notice on you.

If they do they'd need to offer alternative accommodation. At this point you'd still have a choice. You can still bid for one bedroom properties but your enhanced status maybe removed ( I feel this will be unlikely as the council want you to move so won't be putting Barriers to that). The council may also offer properties to you that they think suitable. If you reject you need a legitimate reason.

If they don't. They can't require you to move and at this point after the time limit has expired you should look at requesting proof of tenancy from them.

Hi,

Ref the tenancy, that's what I suspected.

The rent is protected for a year because of bereavement. As long as I'm on low pay, etc.

When you say they struggled to find you alternative accommodation did they literally have nothing available?

Any idea on what a legitimate reason fir turning something down would be? Building problems, local crime, those sort of things?

Sounds like a slog if it dragged on for a year. If the council is anything like mine you have my sympathy and condolences. Mine have been right bastards since the day I notified them. They were telling me I needed to notify housing I wanted to move out the week of the funeral after I'd called to let them know bills would be all over the place. There's been no let up. Telling me I'd lose my points if I didn't start bidding straight away, that sort of nonsense.

Any idea what would happen in the event I should lose?

Thanks again, this stuff is really helpful.

You're welcome hun. Yes the council were absolute gits with us. They had some properties but they were not suitable. They offered us 4 properties in total but they mostly had issues e.g had damp/mould, too far out with no bad public transport.

If you lost your case you would not lose the tenancy. You'd just not be able to live in that property and they have to have suitable accommodation for you.

So if I was you I would wait to see whether they serve notice after 6-12 months and take it from there.

Even when they serve notice you still don't have to leave. It goes to court for them to decide and the council have to have suitable alternative accommodation.

You'll still be able to bid for properties whilst this is on going. You'll still have your right to buy too even if you lost and had to move to another place.

It's basically a waiting game to see if they serve notice really and take it from there.

Thanks a lot guys. You've been a huge help. Certainly better than the CAB and disturbingly enough, the solicitor. A lot to think about anyway. Going to go away and think about what I'm going to do because it doesn't look like the council will give me any leeway. Not unless I can think of reasons that are going to wash with a judge for letting me stay on. You never know something may come up yet.

One more thing before I take break, sorry :)

Does anybody know if leaving this property means my qualifying period to right to buy resets in a new place or is it tenancy dependent and not property?

Does anyone know how lostatsee got on with his tenancy situation with the local council , I am in a similar situation

Is there a resolve to this. Like BlueMelody2019 i'm in a similar situation too. Any advise out there or another topic I should be looking at. all help appreciated, thanks to you all in advance.