Differences between family courts attitude towards fathers

[Sisterland]

I've been following a thread where people have said that courts are now less inclined to just "give the woman everything". Is there differences between family courts in that aspect?

My partner is going to court with two separate cases, one about access to children and one about variation of the original financial order.

When the original financial order was made the attitude in that court was definitely that his ex should have everything because she was a mother, and that was pretty much the outcome.

So we're now worried that the same thing will happen with these two cases. When it comes to the children's case, his ex has not even responded to the notice of proceedings, (Interestingly enough like the woman in the thread I was referring to above) so we are worried that she won't even turn up or comply with what's decided.

Anyone have any experience of Reading family court or Central family court in London?

Caffcass will find out if it's parent alienation or the children's wishes. They give the parents a good grilling ( in a nice way just fact finding ) and then interview the children. It's horrid but be honest and be dignified and the truth always wins.
Took me 5 years but I got all my abuse on record and what the children saw and I'm still giving him access through secure contact centre it's him that refused.
That's also worth asking about if mum is saying bad things tell them ( as hurtful as it may feel ) that your willing to use the contact centre it proves he wants to be a part of their lives and it's not forever . Go on Caffcass website it's quite informative

CAFCASS are not properly trained in identifying or dealing with parental alienation. If that is what is suspected, I would strongly recommend pushing for an expert to be involved - someone like Dr Sue Whitcombe or the Family Separation Clinic.

Sorry to keep posting ! First hearing it can be wrapped up if parties are willing. If not it will be an interim contact order if mum agrees, if not it will go to directions hearing, If no agreement it can go to fact finding / full hearing where parties give evidence but the judge rules on this one if you don't like it not much can be done. I had a fair few directions hearings as every time we where agreeing on a little bit so it was moving forward, first hearing ask for Caffcass, they should do a report ( safety and conduct wishes and feelings ) if you don't agree speak up quick and ask for certain points to be looked into again ( addendum reports) as court often goes with what Caffcass recommend. My s told them he wanted his dad so they gave my ex shared care when I know he cannot meet his needs and my son didn't want that, they re interviewed him after I raised the point and my s said 2 nights a week which is now the agreement, lot of pushing and pulling, compromises and faith but keep fighting for the big picture not the little points. You need to seem fair . The courts are all about the kids they couldn't give a monkeys about the way parents feel. Which is why abusive ex partners use is as a form of control ! My other s won't see my ex and he told Caffcass himself, he doesn't have to see him now at all my s, but I asked for that sons interview to be done at school so I wasn't even In the same building so my ex couldn't say I was influential in his decision.

Thanks for your input @mum22boys83! It's sounds like we have quite a long process ahead of us then. I doubt an agreement will be met on the first hearing. So is it during that hearing it will be decided whether the children should be interviewed? We've been on the Cafcass website but can't seem to find a clear description of the process.

@AliceTown, that's what we've heard as well about Cafcass (my partner is part of a network of separated fathers) How do you push to get an expert involved?

Yes it long process trust me! Cafcass ruled that I wasn't stopping the children seeing there dad like he accused. I can't talk for all officers but mine spent a long time with me. In person & on the phone and seem very professional and understand in a biased way. I may have been lucky.
There has been a big movement regarding abuse ( it's classed as emotion abuse ) towards any parent being obstructive towards the other. So this is good news.

Yes. The judge will order a section 7 ( I think I've had lots of reports done ) which is a general police / agency ( social services ) check that you are fit parents and a wishes and feelings report. The children's mother won't be allowed to be in the room to influence. They will get the child to open up.
Like I say if you don't get the right answers by all means challenge it and ask for professional in that particular field to be involved.

The whole process is children first. If you have done nothing wrong have faith in the system. You won't get the same judge every time so if you don't agree then just remember you probably see someone else next time.

I can only speak positively about cafcass as I fell on a great worker that supported the children throughout, she gave them her work mobile so they could contact her anytime up to writing the report.

Sorry my last replies all messy but typing on the go

Need anything give me a shout I'm a newbie but I've been on the sad side of being made out to be the bad one and 5 years of fighting I've finally got my boys justice and there wishes listened too.

I do think the movement in the family courts helped, I'm sure you seen a particular case a few month ago hugely covered by the media has got many charities campaigning about the child comes first and the supports family court should give rather than judgement.
A big weight goes on that ( wishes and feelings) report which way the judge could swing too so if you think parent alienation is happening try get emails/texts evidence that you have tried to get contact and refused. They won't listen to hear say u less it's from the children. This won't be looked at unless a final fact finding or final hearing is needed but at least you are prepared.
May also ask for mediation I'm not sure how you feel about that. You need to be willing to try everything to prove to the court you will accept any contact, you can always vary the order say a few months down the line or you could still be going through this court sequence. My order was changed about 5 times. ( he broke everyone ! ) but this way you get to see the children and create a bond.

My order states contact centre for one child but the dad won't do it. So he lost contact. To a court that's him refusing not me stopping .

I believe the youngest is 8 . They can be interviewed. Mine was.

Ps please don't listen to much to those seperated father sites or forums. I'm sure my ex been ranting how he has been stopped and cafcass let him down.
When in fact he abused me for years and took the police and a top solicitor to get my children back as he ran off with them.
I bet he didn't tell his online buddies that part.
You will never get a biased review of cafcass in them.

I see a lot of conflicting stories.
I've seen fathers moaning on websites who cafcass/solicitors/judges are biased and don't acknowledge anything they say because they have a penis and obviously makes them less of a parent.

And I've seen ladies moan how the ex wooed cafcass/solicitors/judges and therefore essentially "lost".

I think depending on a person's outcome will be how they give their view. For example a father who has a shady history, not consistent in a child's life would cry how the court system is bias and against him without giving detail of how he messed up.
Same with a woman.

I completely agree with Kung Fu. There is a mixture of good and poor outcomes, and a mixture of professionals being biased to mothers, fathers and not biased to either.

I suppose there will always be people in all professions that are better or less good at their jobs. We'll just have to hope to get across good ones :)

And there will always be people who twists the truth to fit their own version. And for that matter, always two sides to the story as well.

My partner has already tried the mediation route with the ex several times with no result. She's dropped out after one or two sessions each time as she doesn't think she needs to be there, as the relationship between him and the children is not her business. That attitude would be ok I guess if she's wasn't constantly undermining him in the background.

It will certainly be interesting to see what this court case will bring, at least it feels like it can't get much worse that it already is. (Could be famous last words, but hope not!)

the relationship between him and the children is not her business

Except that the relationship between a child and their father can have huge implications for their development..!

I agree. Unfortunately she doesn't see it that way. She's also completely convinced that the children have formed their opinions without any influence from her. Of course it's hard to say why a child feels the way the do but I can give a two examples to show th type of behaviour of the mother.

-Every time they're with their dad she's constantly texting the children, saying she misses them so much and she's so lonely without them. She also counts down the hours for them "Be strong, only 5 hours left until you're home and safe". (My partner has seen these texts as they come in, on the "preview" you get on the screen when a text comes in)

-Makes a point (in front of my partner) when he drops them off of what they've missed "X called and asked if wanted to come and do Y, but of course you couldn't as you were with daddy"

Would you recommend that my partner tries and bring examples like these up with Cafcass? I suspect she will sort of dig her own grave as she can't seem to stop herself, and she also believes she is totally in the right.

He needs to focus on the impact of the child but yes I would certainly mention those things.

How often is he seeing them at the moment? And what is he asking the court to do?

Poor kids have never been "allowed" to enjoy the time with their dad, she's always there to remind them that it's a horrible experience and that she's all lonely without them. Not an insignificant weight for a child to carry, I think.

Presently he's meant to see them every other weekend, plus arrangements during holiday times including half terms, Christmas and Easter etc. It's now got to the point where the children are negotiating every single occasion and my partner believes it's very stressful for them to be caught in the middle like that. Whether the mother says so outright or not, they know she wants them to spend all their time with her.

I guess what he's hoping for with the court case is to come to an agreement regarding the contact that everyone can be comfortable with so it do and have to be negotiated under great stress for every occasion. If that means less time than in the original parenting plan then so be it. It's already being undermined and he's missed out on most of the agreed dates this last year.

*doesn't have to be negotiated

There has been a lot of press comment that London judges can be quite old fashioned and think men keep women and judges out of London particularly in the North think women should work so there are fewer on going spousal maintenance awards there.That of course should not happen - there should be no regional differences. I think I remember one senior London family judge getting divorced and it was sent out of London to avoid any allegations of bias (sensible decision) but people speculating that might have that out of London effect (to his advantage) in the settlement.

However there tends not to be much bias. I am a woman. I had to pay my ex a massive settlement - woman paying man - happens all the time now women often earn more than their husbands. He got more than 50% as I did not want on going maintenance at all and I wanted a clean break settlement so he could not claim more later.

How old are the children? My ex has chosen just about never to see the children - he sees the older 2 every few months for a meal. It's absolutely pathetic and I cannot understand why his new wife thinks that's remotely acceptable (and he pays nothing) as she's very nice! We are used it now. I work full time so I suppose at least I've always had the assurance that it's down to me to arrange and pay for all childcare and I won't have a night without the children anynight of the year.

Then on the other side we have all these men denied contact by women. Two massive problems - a large numebr of men paying nothing and never seeing the children and then loads of men who are paying and would love to see the children. My ex could have had the children 50% of the time even had he wanted.

How old are the children in this case? Teenagers often cannot be bothered even to leave their bed room to see their mother never might traipse off to see their father so in that case it may be nothing to do with the mother that they won't go. Small children you pick up and dump in their father's car even if they are screaming and they just have to lump it as the mother needs a bit of a break and the children will just have to put up with it.

@JanetBrown2015 that fits with what my partner's barrister said during the first financial proceedings which were done in London, that it was a "tradition" that London courts rules in favour of women. Whether there's any truth to it or not I don't know...

They are 8, 10, 12 and 14. Not all down to being teenagers though as this problem has been ongoing since separation 5 years ago.

My partner currently pays quite a hefty maintenance (both child and spousal) as well as having given the ex the house.

Not in favour of women but in favour more of lower earners (in my marriage I, the woman, was by far the higher earner).
So quite hard to force a 14 year old to visit their father but not an 8 year old. I wonder what could persuade the children to want to visit? Eg setp parent not present, some nice outings to start with. Bribes usually work - why don;y ou come over and only I will be here and I can buy all 4 of you new trainers... that might get the children to agree to visit for example. Also when mothers work (I work full time ) having a reliable other half who will always have the children ay half the working week is a massive benefit to that mother not a disadvantage. Whereas if more contact means less money for the resident mother I suppose visits are not so keenly encouraged.

Pity your other half could not have afforded a clean break settlement at the time and was saddled with on going maintenance.