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"Best endeavours"

30 replies

FV45 · 20/05/2017 14:50

In our CAO it says "UPON the respondent Father agreeing to use his best endeavours to encourage the child to attend "Cubs".

What is a best endeavour and how many Cubs would a child miss before the applicant Mother could reasonably take father back to court?
The child has told the mother the reason he didn't go (Dad took him out to the pub) and cried that he missed a hike, but doubtless the father would say child didn't want to go/was tired.

For context the child was with the mother when he was in Beavers and was always taken ie the child enjoys scouts.

Ha! I'm the mum....don't know why I wrote it all like that, can't be arsed to change it now (on phone).

OP posts:
AliceTown · 20/05/2017 15:13

Honestly? You'd go back to court for that?!

FV45 · 20/05/2017 15:21

Ermm, well that's obv not the whole contents of the CAO.
Do you have anything helpful to add or you just want to be rude?

I was hoping someone with legal training might be able to help.

OP posts:
TheVeryHungryDieter · 20/05/2017 15:27

Not much you could do I would think. It basically just means "I'll try". If he says something comes up, it won't be looked at as a breach of the condition. So it's not a guarantee of attendance.

AliceTown · 20/05/2017 15:45

No of course it's not the contents of the CAO and I wasn't intending to be rude, so I'm sorry if I came across that way.

What I mean is - court is a dreadful place to be. It's not good for the child for there to be ongoing conflict which is often exacerbated by the adversarial process.

If there's no batting order in place then you could take it back, but he hasn't breached the order. Activities during each parents time are really a matter of parental responsibility.

If there are other, stronger reasons to return to court then I would mention it, but I wouldn't return the matter to court solely on that basis. I think it would come across as you being quite petty and nitpicking - almost looking for a fight rather than trying to make the best of what is.

AliceTown · 20/05/2017 15:46

Barring order, not batting!

Iamdobby63 · 20/05/2017 15:50

When CAO was drawn up DS2 was in Beavers and it was set up that he should be with you on that day (correct me if I'm wrong), I see now he has moved on to Scouts, which I guess is a different day, so could you point this out and always have DS2 on this day instead?

Iamdobby63 · 20/05/2017 15:54

AliceTown FV45's ex wouldn't understand 'parental responsibilities' if it jumped up and bit him on the arse. Lol

Quartz2208 · 20/05/2017 16:06

It's means more than just I'll try, it's the most onerous and means all that a reasonable person could reasonably do in the circumstances. Basically if an average parent would have taken them then he should, what it allows for is circumstances that most people would not take them in, illness, beareavement, car breaking down etc. He can't just say something came up he would need to be specific.

It's a contractual term, so say it was in a commercial or employment contract (it will be a lot) you could not just say something came up so I did not reliever the goods or I did not turn up for work

Generally activities would be an individual matter but this is clearly specified as a contractual obligation which if he did just say no he has breached.

AliceTown · 20/05/2017 16:14

It's not ordered though - it's a recital. If it was ordered, it would be a breach.

And it's such a small thing.

I assume from other posts that there is an extended history but I can only go on what you've posted here.

FV45 · 20/05/2017 18:49

Can you explain the difference between an order and a recital?

OP posts:
AliceTown · 20/05/2017 18:56

The recitals are a record of agreements made between the parents (or sometimes the court's expectations e.g. UPON the court expressing its desire that Father take Son to Cubs every week) but are not enforceable.

The order (It is ordered that...) is enforceable.

FV45 · 20/05/2017 19:50

It says
10. THE COURT ORDERS
UPON etc etc (what I said earlier).

I do wish they'd use plain English.

OP posts:
FV45 · 20/05/2017 19:52

Yes there is a long history. Pop over to Relationships "The ignoring..." if you feel so inclined.

I just want to understand the language in the CAO

OP posts:
FV45 · 20/05/2017 19:56

I have no entitlement to ask, but it would be really helpful if posters could say if the are legally trained.

I can ask a solicitor of course, but I was just hoping a legal person might be around.

OP posts:
AliceTown · 20/05/2017 19:58

That looks a little like they've placed the recitals inside the order.

It's still a bit wishy washy really. It doesn't say best endeavours to take him to Cubs, it says encourage him to. So he'd always have the defence of he used his best endeavours but Son insisted he didn't want to go.

I still think that if this is the only issue that you would be looking at to return the matter to court, it'd probably be more hassle than it's worth. If it's not the only issue and you want to return the matter to court for other things then I would mention it alongside other issues.

FV45 · 20/05/2017 20:03

There are many issues, this is just one which happens to be in the CAO.

And FWIW more than a few professionals (including cafcass) stressed the importance of a young child being able to go to their clubs, especially when there has been disruption.

OP posts:
AliceTown · 20/05/2017 20:11

Yes I agree - maintaining attendance at clubs can give a child a sense of security and consistency in an otherwise unsettling situation.

I'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying on balance, as a single issue, I'd let it lie. If it's not a single issue, then raise it as a bigger picture issue.

I'm not a lawyer but spent 5 years representing myself so have a fair understanding. I didn't ever come across a situation where the recitals were placed within the part where it says "the court orders" so you'll have to wait for someone qualified to answer that be though Smile

FV45 · 20/05/2017 23:24

Am on computer now so can type more easily.
Thank you for your advice Alice. As I'm sure you can now tell, I am pretty frustrated.
I self-represented for the CAO in court, but I did have my divorce sol look over my ex's position statement. He was represented by a barrister using money from the settlement, which was all earned by me, the workshy arse

There are quite a few things listed in that section of the Order, and tbh at the time I didn't question the wording (was so relieved to have any sort of Order).

The judge was all about parent communication bla bla bla, which I know is in the interest of the child, but it's not working for many reasons.

OP posts:
FV45 · 20/05/2017 23:28

dobby you are pretty much right.

Beavers is on a Monday. Before ex moved out he worked every other Monday. If he wasn't working he would take DS2 out for the evening and not take him to Beavers. If he was working I would take him to Beavers.

His position statement asked for DS2 to have contact on a Friday, and at that time DS2 was still a Beaver. DS2 is with on Monday so until he moved up to Cubs all was fine. In anticipation of DS moving from Beavers to Cubs and based on knowing he hadn't taken him to Beavers I asked for it to be added to the Order.

It has only been a couple of sessions so far.

OP posts:
FV45 · 20/05/2017 23:31

quartz Thank you, that's useful. I think going to the pub doesn't count as a reasonable explanation for not taking DS!

I am trying to arrange someone professional to talk to DS so that it's not just me bleating away about how DS wants to go.
I've given him my word I'll sort it out for him.

OP posts:
dirtygrubbybikerchick · 20/05/2017 23:54

Am a solicitor but not a family lawyer. Have however dealt with several court orders, incl in divorce. Quartz is right re definition of "best endeavours". But that's not the whole picture.

You haven't put the full wording of that section of the order, but typically Court orders will say:
The court orders that, upon xyz happening (the conditions to the order), abc will/must happen (the actual enforceable part of the order).

In other words, there'll be a list of conditions (including the one re cubs) which, once fulfilled, will give effect to the order of the court that follows at the end of that whole section (which in this case I suspect is where the court orders you to give your ex access to your son on Fridays).

Important to note is whether the conditions only say "upon the respondent agreeing to use his best endeavours..." or whether they also say something like "AND upon the respondent so using his best endeavours..."? The former statement is fulfilled if your ex simply makes you a promise (whether he keeps it or not) whereas the latter statement says that he MUST keep that promise.

If I have guessed the above contents of the order correctly, then if your ex has fulfilled the condition (see above), then you must comply with the order to give him access or he has the right to enforce and you would be in contempt of court if you did not comply.

If however he has not fulfilled the condition fully (again, see above) then the order does not bite and there is nothing for you to comply with, i.e. You could deny access and he couldn't do anything about it unless he took it back to court to insist that he did fulfil the condition.

Obviously the above is based on pure guess work on what is within your CAO, which I haven't seen. Hope that helps give you a better idea of what that gobbledygook means, but please do talk to your solicitor for actual advice.

FV45 · 21/05/2017 08:41

biker thank you so much. Would you mind if I PM you later (when I'm on computer and kids in bed and house tidy about 2am!)?

OP posts:
Familylawsolicitor · 21/05/2017 09:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dirtygrubbybikerchick · 21/05/2017 09:53

Thanks @Familylawsolicitor Smile As I said, I'm not a family lawyer and was just speaking generally about the format of court orders rather than specifically CAOs (and making my guesses on that basis).

@FV45 I would go with PMing @Familylawsolicitor if she/he is happy for you to. Cases and orders involving children are of course far more complex than otherwise, and you should definitely speak to someone specialised in that! Smile

dirtygrubbybikerchick · 21/05/2017 09:54

Oops - don't know why it bolded my first paragraph like that. Not meant to be in bold.

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