LPA. Need to check I'm not going crazy.

[BlueBlueElectricBlue]

There's a long backstory here, but essentially my DP's mum wants to set up a LPA with him and his siblings as attorneys.

His DB is organising it and for some reason wants/insists all the attorneys sign the LPA before his DM does. My reading of the documentation suggests correct order is donor, certificate provider (hopefully after taking the donor through a conversation about what they are agreeing to) then the attorneys.

DP's DB is insisting it doesn't matter and all the attorneys should just sign first and then everything else can be done.

For some reason he's also behaving like there's a major hurry and that it all needs to be done before they go away on business for a couple of weeks.

I'm not getting it at all. The rush (DP's mum is perfectly competent and with it, if elderly, and there's no reason why she shouldn't continue to be), the unnecessary mucking about with the process and a complete lack of detail about the LPA itself as the forms haven't been fully completed.

DP and I feel it's important that this is done properly and particularly that his mum should be given a chance to go through the paperwork with someone neutral, and we really can't understand why this is being done like this.

DP's mum is feeling really pressured and stressed and I really don't like it.

We're right to feel this needs to be done properly aren't we?

It doesn't really matter
Even if you have all signed it won't be activated until a medical professional states that she has lost capacitiy
Then it will go to the office of public guardian to be stamped
Make sure she fills in the part regarding a person to be notified

Then why does the guidance for form completion state that signatory order is donor, then certificate provider, then attorneys, and if it isn't signed in that order then it won't be registered by the office of the public guardian.

DB is asking DP to date his signature in the future and for the signature witness to be left blank and filled in later.

I'm not normally a stickler for rules, but the more we talk to DP's mum the less it seems she understands what she is agreeing to and she is getting increasingly stressed at getting information from all over the place. It just doesn't seem to happening properly, or calmly. I'm worried for her.

DP's brother was saying that there was no need to fill in the person to be notified part (I can see it's not mandatory), but it seemed a good thing to do to me.

DP's mum didn't even know that was an option.

I'm not normally a stickler for rules, but the more we talk to DP's mum the less it seems she understands what she is agreeing to and she is getting increasingly stressed at getting information from all over the place.

The Provider must not sign the document unless he/she is confident that the donor knows and understands fully what the LPA is for.

There are leaflets available from Age Concern that help to explain it.

Everyone should have an LPA, just like everyone should make a will.

It has to be in the right order. Donor first then certificate provider. You must follow the correct order on the instructions provided or the OPG can and do reject them.

The Provider must not sign the document unless he/she is confident that the donor knows and understands fully what the LPA is for

Up until my DP asked if it was going to happen, the proposed certificate provider wasn't even going to talk to his DM about it.

They haven't done so yet and haven't signed the form and so DP has refused to sign his part. His DB is putting so much pressure on his DM to make DP sign that she said today that she was scared to tell him DP wouldn't sign because he'd be so cross.

You must follow the correct order on the instructions provided or the OPG can and do reject them.

DB was proposing to date them so it looked like it had all been done in right order, but have attorneys sign first. For no reason I can understand.

It has to be signed in the correct order - donor, certificate provider, then attorneys. The certificate provider is certifying that the donor understands the nature and effect of the LPA, and that she has capacity.

If a certificate provider signs a form that has already been signed by the attorneys, and is therefore backdating it, then they could potentially be in a fair bit of trouble themselves.

If the donor is being forced into it, then this is undue influence. The OPG can, and will, open a safeguarding report if they get wind of it.

If you think something dodgy is going on, I'd get her along to am independent solicitor who can talk her through it, act as the certificate provider, and do a capacity check/safeguarding check for undue influence as well. Would be worth the money.

Otherwise, phone the OPG.

Thanks Sitting. That's really helpful. I'm unsure if it's 'dodgy' or just a bit incompetent and overly controlling. I just don't like seeing MIL so stressed by it all.

Solicitor here. You must sign it in the right order, the order is set out on the form for a reason. The document could be challenged if not validly executed.

Also, check how the attorneys are being appointed - it's either jointly, or jointly and severally. If the latter, BIL could essentially act alone once the document is registered so be very careful.

Situations like this are when solicitor involvement is so important - they will ensure MIL is making her own decisions and for the right reasons. They can talk through the options for attorneys, replacement attorneys, how they are appointed etc. If MIL has any funds under discretionary management a specific clause needs to be included.

I have seen these documents prepared badly and subsequently abused on so many occasions, very sad indeed.

Thanks Bird. I am beginning to think solicitor is the way to go. I checked how attorneys were appointed and it is jointly (there's 4 of them), so I can't see that BIL is going to get very far trying to act alone.

I really don't understand why he's being so peculiar about it.

My father and i signed a day after the GP and the opg sent the form back. Order is all important.
R e your BIL, at least he is involving siblings and not trying to do it in his own.
My dad died 3 months ago. I had LPA for 4 years, it's only recently i realised this might have been a bit threatening for my brother, he has mental illness thankfully better now than when i was applying but in no way could he have managed dad's affairs.

Ooh the fees just gone down from £110 to £82.

Just be careful re joint appointment if one appointment fails they all do. Most choose joint and several.

Yes. I saw the fees had gone down. So, I'm assuming as registering both financial and health LPAs it will be £164 in total. Even that has been dealt with oddly, as BIL told DP that he was paying the fees when in fact MIL is paying them (and fretting about expense).

I suspect she might well be exempt from paying them, though need to look into it, as she didn't know that was an option. Otherwise, I think DP and I will try and find enough to cover it.

@KERALA - not sure any of the siblings involved would be happy for their counterparts to make individual decisions. I have suggested replacements attorneys for each one, to have some sort of backup. Again, not something that's been discussed.

My father and i signed a day after the GP and the opg sent the form back. Order is all important

Is that because the GP should have done it after your father or because of the time delay? I think we may struggle to get all forms signed on one day.

The order does matter. If you don't do it in the right order, it will get sent back as not being valid bitter experience

If you have to have all attorneys making decisions jointly, and each replaced by a backup, the whole thing will essentially be unworkable in practice as no-one will ever agree.

For a health and welfare LPA (you don't say which sort BIL is trying to do) it would be a nightmare.

The plan (not my plan!!) was to do everything in the wrong order, but date it as if it had been done in the correct order.

I think they're trying to do both the financial and the health and welfare.

To be honest, I think it is probably unworkable. However I also think some siblings need check and balances in place, so I think ability to act severally would be an even worse idea from MIL's point of view.

If there isn't the trust there not sure how it will work in practice anyway op. Your mil has to be happy with this I would be concerned as to why she is being harried and rushed into it. He is wrong about the order too as pp correctly point out.

If it helps, I'm a lawyer. I think the key point here is 'DP's mum is feeling really pressurised..'. She can't create an LPA if there's any suggestion she's unhappy about it or feeling pressured into doing so. Who is your certificate provider? Make sure he or she takes her to a separate room, away from the attorneys or anyone else to have a chat so s/he is sure she is content to make the LPA. There's also a risk that the OPG will return the document if not signed and dated correctly- I agree with you that the Attorneys sign after the donor and certificate provider. It's her LPA, not theirs! And if they fudge the dates that will be fraud.... So the certificate provider cannot then sign it. Hope that helps.