Overpaid in error for 5 years ! Help please.

[ginorwine]

My employer is a county council .there was a pay scale restructure 5 years ago which meant that my grade stopped at grade 8 . At which point a bar was imposed on any pay rise apart from standard of living pay rise . some workers wanted to progress thro this to grade 9 which was a new role with additional duties , were interviewed and given this grade .i was happy to stay at grade 8 .
I got a call to say there was an error and I passed through the bar as if o was grade 9 and as such had been given an increment each year .i had assumed this was the standard of living rise as I assumed I could not go thro the bar as it was blocked to my grade .
So now I find I have
A reduced wage - quite right as it was never really mine .
But on top of that a dept which they want to recover which will have significant impact on us as it will add up to less 300 pm with reduction and dept
I rang acas and they said there was a possible challenge I could make as there was a case of Lincoln social services v .. Acas cdnt re all - and the person won the case as they had made decisions based on what they thought their income was when they too were paid wrongly .
I'm in too minds wether to challenge as I was overpaid but equally this will have serious consequences for us .acas said they thought this was a legal mistake . Any employment lawyers out there please ,? Thanks .

My work halved mine as it was their fault and me who'd pointed it out (again)

I paid it back over 2 years

I had this happen years ago, again overpaid by a council and I genuinely didn't realise. I didn't have to pay it back as I had genuinely thought that this was my wage.

Who
That's great
What did you say
How did you do it
And did you need a solicitor ?
I'm wondering now if they are being all big guns in case I get myself informed
If you cd discribe what you actually said I'd be all ears !
A lawyer upstream has offered sme advice as well as the principle above so I do feel so thankful to you all .

I just cried to my manager. I was eight months pregnant at the time and I think he panicked. He rang HR up and said I wasn't to pay the money back, it wasn't fair on me. They said ok and thag was that. This was 15 years ago.

Hope you get it sorted.

I cried as well
I was genuinely upset
I'm a single parent - I need every penny

Hi Dolly,

I am in a similar situation with my employer (a Uni). I posted on this board and got loads of support but I had to get my thread deleted because I had posted lots of information that made me identifiable. In my case lots of people are affected and it looks like it is turning into a Union dispute.

Anyway, ACAS are good but different people say different things. The best lady I spoke to said that employers are generally allowed to claim back overpayments but it depend on whether it is a 'mistake of law' or a 'mistake of fact'. Mistakes of law are not recoverable whereas mistakes of fact are. Mistakes of fact are things like typing errors, bank transfer errors etc. Mistakes of law occur if the computation of a salary is miscalculated in the belief that the calculation is correct. She also said that a relevant precedent is the 1983 case of Howlett vs Avon County council.

Someone came on here and said that the mistake of law/fact stuff is rather old fashioned so that is worth bearing in mind.

I think in your case the fact that you genuinely believed the money to be yours (and it was hard to spot the mistake because of the increments) and the fact that you have based your lifestyle and decisions on this money is relevant.

What have you got to lose by saying no and seeing what happens?

Yes you need to do what was suggested by BeStrong, she's been on the other side

Say no to start with. Then Make a low offer to pay back over a long time. Then you have the start of a negotiation.

I also think BeStrongAndCourageous gives good advice.

HR sending you an invoice is laughable. Tell them that you are willing to enter into a discussion about this matter but as a first step you expect them to explain which specific clauses of your employment contract entitle them to claim back the money and how they see those clauses working or, in the absence of that, written legal arguments explaining the basis of their supposed entitlement. You can explain that unless you are immediately convinced of the validity of their claim you will need their arguments in writing so that you can take legal advice.

In your shoes I'd be looking to agree a 50% repayment to take place over a time period that causes you little financial discomfort. As a basic principle you should not be put into tightened financial circumstances as a result of their mistake.

Thanks all for advice so far .
I've looked for my contract but can't find it .
However , Dh who also works for the same employer, has a contract which will be identical to mine - this states that any overpayments must be re paid .
Does anyone think that, despite this , I can still argue and use principle of estoppel as the overpayment was for such a long period ? Thanks !

I'm going to pm you

Lamas
Wd it be ok to pm me still if that OK for you ? No problem if can't 😄

I would add, follow up with your union again if you haven't already. When I had a dispute that needed legal advice, the local branch were poor at giving correct advice but once I got on to regional and proper solicitors I got excellent advice and a good resolution. Follow up with the union - this sort off scenario is exactly what you pay subs for.

Thanks palace
I spoke to local union who said I will have to pay it back - will ring them and ask re legal support tomorrow !

Employment law isn't my area, but I've some experience in reclaiming/defending reclaims from payments wrongly made. First off, don't rely on your DH's contract, and don't allow them to say that they can't find your contract, but their standard contract assumes they can deduct overpayments - if they rely on a contractual term to do this, make them prove it's in your contract, not in the standard, not in your DH's, not in a co-worker's. If they don't have the right to reclaim then you don't have to allow it; if they do it without your permission, then back in the day when I did employment law, it'd be classed as an unlawful deduction from wages, which gives you the right to claim damages equal to (if memory serves me right) three times the amount of the deduction.

Secondly, if you have to concede that they're entitled to claim back the overpayments, they've given you valuable information that they're going against their normal practice in not allowing the repayments to be made over the same duration as the overpayments were made. The hidden information in that statement is that they have doubts about their ability (legal and/or practical) to recover the overpayments if you're no longer working for them - that in itself is valuable information, so use it.

In addition, in saying that they will not allow you the usual period of time to repay because they're worried that you'll retire they are also saying - between the lines, but pretty explicitly - that they intend to discriminate against you on grounds of your age. That is, to say the least, fairly dodgy. If I were their lawyer, I'd be doing a facepalm right about now. Good luck.

Thanks ministry !!! I will for sure ask for a copy of my contract as a start point .

Bugger, too late for me. I meekly accepted it and will be making overpayments for years to come. Sigh.

The same happened to me. I was young and naive and notified the company after I noticed three months of extra payments after I'd left. In response I got a very stern letter back saying that the money had to be paid back OR ELSE LEGAL ACTION would be taken. The tone of the letter annoyed me as it seemed that I was the criminal even though I notified them of their mistake.

It was a large global company and they are lucky I informed them early.

If it happened again, I wouldn't tell but I wouldn't spend the money either. Just earn some interest on it.

I'm not a legal person at all, but it's not just as simple as paying back the money over a period of time. You've paid tax and National Insurance on that income - so is the money they are asking you to repay net or gross? Are they proposing to contact HMRC to get that tax/NI refunded to either them or you? no idea how that works or even if that's possible.

Depending on your salary, the overpayment has possibly affected your ability to claim certain benefits - Child Benefit, Working Tax Credit. Also Pension payments, these are usually a percentage of salary - so you have probably paid more into your pension than you would have if they had paid you correctly. You should make sure that you understand the full impact, and that you get the amount 'owed' adjusted to take account of these other knock on effects that are a result of their error.

Good Luck!

Im place marking