Sporadic Contact with children

[Fiddlerontheroof]

I'm going to try very hard here to be very factual and not drip feed, but it is hard as it has been a very difficult three years.

I have two kids, 11 & 5. Their father left 3 years ago, married the OW and lives very close to us, less than 5 minutes away.

Over the last 3 years, Dad has been very difficult, gradually withdrawing from contact, only having contact on days and times to suit him. He has a job which requires me to be flexible over contact, and I am. But for example he booked in contact May-Sept to fit with his work schedule, and then changed several days at very short notice so he could go on holiday, maintain his social life etc etc. This happens alot.

Contact ceased oct 2013- May 2014 when he refused to take his daughter to show rehearsals on a Sunday, which he deemed HIS day. Despite the fact that his day often changes. He made his daughter choose between him and the show she has been doing for 4 years now, she choose the show. :(

And now contact has ceased again since June, when I stopped him phoning as emotionally it was causing enormous upset every time he calls to the kids, as he won't commit to when he will see them, or he lies about where he is. Or he tries to arrange contact via them on the phone, which isn't always convenient if we have made plans, and I end up being the bad guy.

So I told him that my mobile is on, and when he is ready he can call and arrange to see the kids, no problem. But he can't keep phoning all the time, and refusing to discuss when they are going to see him. He has refused to call my mobile. So as a result, he has not seen his kids or spoken to them.

He won't take me to court, as he doesn't want to be forced to commit to a regular day, as that would MAKE him have to arrange childcare when he works which he won't do.

The problem is, this is now the second prolonged period of no contact and it is having an enormously detrimental effect on the kids. Worse still we have to drive past his house daily, so they can see the cars and they know he is there.

I have called him and he won't take my calls. I have offered mediation regular y, and he won't go.

I took him to court, about a year and a half ago and we agreed in the end to work together to move forward, but he soon went back to his old ways.

So now I really really need to get some closure on this. I either need him to step up and at the very least make some kind of contact agreement and stick to it so the kids know what is happening. Even if it's minimal contact.

Or I need him to declare he's no intention of being part of the children's lives, and then at least we can all move on, and not live in this horrific limbo all the time where the children, and me! are constantly wondering if he is ever going to see them again, and if so when.

Can anyone advise me on what might happen if I take him back to court?

Oh, and finally I arranged for my daughter to work with a Youth Advocate about a year ago, so she could tell her dad what she wanted, without my involvement, and Dad refused to believe that the letter was in her own words, and refused to give her what she asked for which was an overnight once a week, and going for tea once a fortnight. :(

The problem you (and I) have is that you cannot force a man ever to see his children under English law. In 10 years mine have not had one night with him. I have had all 5 of them 365 nights a year which I suppose at least is simple. (He also liveds 5 minutes away). My children are happy with that as they wanted the divorce so except for the fact I work full time and arranging 4.30am to 9am childcare if I am flying away on business etc is very very hard for me or was when they were a bit younger no one is put out by all this except for me but it's very unfair. I think the law should force fathers to have children half the time whether they like it or not.

Thank you, yes, I should have said I'm more than aware I can't force him!

I very much feel that all parents who divorce should have to attend mediation/parenting together courses and draw up an agreement together as part of the process!

But I think for me, the main issue is living in this horrible limbo. I need to do something.

fiddler I sympathise - the "stop-start" never-knowing-if-contact-will-happen feelings are something I am very familiar with to.

Have you considered applying for a no-contact order? My DHs ex recently did this (on the grounds of emotional abuse on DHs part). Although the abuse was disproved, the court ordered both parents to attend the SPIP and then, based partly on DSS wishes and feelings, the court reduced contact to a minimum - 4 hours a fortnight, away from our home - basically, DH turns up EOW and takes DSS out for a trip for an afternoon.

The advantage of that from your DCs pov is that it quickly becomes unimportant to them - DSS regularly "forgets" that his dad is going to be taking him out of a weekend, and DH has become a "distant uncle" figure in DSS life. We live close by too - DH often drives past his DCs, but they barely recognise him now, he's such an incidental part of their lives.

By the sounds of things that would suit your DCs because they wouldn't then be disappointed if their Dad didn't turn up or cancelled a weekend. Obviously, the ideal would be that he stepped up and became the Dad you want your DCs to have, but in the absence of that, putting distance between them and their dad will protect them from his inconsiderate behaviour.

Thank you, I'd not considered that as an option, though it would be deeply tragic. It is all about protecting them now. My daughter is disabled so has more than enough to cope with as it is, I'm so disappointed in him. He was a good dad... I don't understand what has happened. :(

You appear to suggest that even though you took him to court you did not actually get an order. If that is so, there is no order requiring you to make the children available. Accordingly you do not in law have any obligation to continue to encourage contact.
You are motivated to do so though on the basis that the children are entitled to have a relationship with their pater and indeed, for him to behave rather better toward them than he has. The difficulty is not that you cannot force him to behave better (as you and Greengrow acknowledge) but that there is nothing the law can do to make a parent a better person than they are. It follows that there is nothing the court can do to help you in this situation.
That brings me back to where I started. If there is no legal obligation to encourage contact and there is no practical assistance the court can offer, then there is no purpose is going to court. If the man is a sod, he will remain a sod.
I suggest you write to him telling him that he has left you with no option but to take control and in the interests of the children's emotional welfare you require him to commit to [insert your honest opinion of what the minimum should be]. You will no longer connive at his random arrangements as they give the impression to the children that they are less important to him than his other activities, and you require no less than two weeks' notice of any proposal by him for contact beyond that which you have suggested.
If he doesn't like it, he rather than you can go to court. And if he does, I have little doubt that the court will have great sympathy and respect for the manner in which you have put the children's welfare right at the heart of the discussion.
[If however there IS an order, the advice will have to be amended!]
Please do not be concerned about the possibility of appearing in court without representation: it is now so common that specific guidance has been issued to the judiciary requiring them to ensure that litigants in person suffer no disadvantage.
HP

The order if I remember was that he would make more effort to see kids regulary, and I would continue to be flexible and make the children available.

That was a stamped court document, which says at the top it is an order.

It says

Upon hearing the parties, the court orders

1. Leave granted for the application to be withdrawn on the basis that the applicant mother will be as flexible as she can in making the children available for contact bearing in mind their schedule and respondent father will make himself available as much as possible to have contact with the children bearing in mind their schedules.

The second order is regarding the step mother whom I initially took out a prohibited steps order as she kept forcing her way into my disabled daughters medical appointments (which at the time they were investigating her for a potential life limiting condition, so as you can imagine I needed that like a hole in the head) Bu I agreed to withdraw that on the basis that both parties draw a line under their difficulties. She still turns up, but the hospital support me in not allowing her in the actual appointment.

So what does this mean? Can I return and say Dad does sporadic contact, I need something more concrete? IE every Sunday? except when he is out of the country?

Please if anyone can advise I'd be so grateful. I just can't afford to return to a solicitor. I represented myself last time, with help from someone here for which I was incredibly grateful

Thanks

xx

Apologies for drip feeding Huppopapa, until you jogged my memory I had forgotten about the order, made in June 2013.

AhA!
Q: When is an order not an order? lawyers fall off chairs at Huppopapa's wit
That IS an order but it is NOT an order regulating contact with children. The only thing the order does is give the pater permission to withdraw his application (family law having an unusual rule that you can't withdraw from litigation without the court's permission).
Now, it was made on the basis of the expectations set out in the relevant paragraph. You did what was expected of you. He, one regrets to observe, did not do what was expected of him.
Looking at it as an exchange of promises (as if it were a contract) you would not be expected to continue to comply with your obligations if he was not doing his. That is to say, the agreement would by now be over. But there is an even better and stronger reason why you should no longer feel bound to the expectations expressed by the court at the time: the welfare of the children.
You will notice I suggested you wrote and explained that you felt compelled to impose a new, stricter and sparser regime on the basis of the children's welfare alone. This is often said by parents seeking to restrict contact but in this case it really does seem to be both sincere and justified. Your children need their father but they also need stability.
So an order does exist but it imposes a moral duty to facilitate substantial contact which has now evaporated and not a legal duty.
Carry on.
(PS, as for the loon turning up at hospital, I suggest you find out how she knows about the appointments and try to stop that and secondly point out to the hospital that this woman does not have PR so should be barred from the ward by security rather than medical staff. It is not up for argument or discussion with doctors and nurses: she is not entitled to be there full stop. If she refuses to go she is a trespasser and should be removed.)

Thank you for your excellent response. I have up til recently always informed the kids dad of hospital appointments, and she attends with him.

I know categorically if I write to him restricting contact to Sundays only, he won't respond, and won't do it.

If I threaten a no contact order he simply won't respond either.

He's hardly hammering the door down to see them, but if we speak, ( unlikely) he will behave in a completely outraged way at what he considers to be my appalling behaviour.

And yes you guessed correct, this is not in any way spite on my part, I honestly want my kids to have a proper relationship with both parents.

Thank you, you've given me lots to think about

X

Hi just bumping to say that Dad finally got in contact, but at the moment, will only leave messages on my answer phone.

He's demanding a period of trust before he has the children at his house again! That's a period of trust where I prove I'm not going to in his words "dictate what he does with the kids on 'His' day. The problem is, that they are kids, and they have footy, and show rehearsals...and as he doesn't always have them every Sunday...they want to do this stuff, and want him to support them. There's not a lot I can do if he doesn't take them.

At the moment, he will only speak to my answer phone, and not me. I've called him back several times now, and he refuses to answer.

Added to that, his parents phone here every night on a Wednesday, and they are winding it up by saying, "daddy has tried to phone mummy" and. "Daddy is missing you" implying to my kids that I'm somehow withholding contact. My daughter then challenged me on this, and is had to show her my mobile to prove I'd been calling him. It's very unfair on them.

It's all a big mess, and there's no one that can help sort it so the kids can just we their dad without me having to deal with all this drama and childishness from him.

I am strongly considering a return to court to get an order which commits him to every Sunday, working or not. (He will have to organise childcare like I do! And only works about 6 Sundays a year) Is this wise?

The advice earlier here from Huppopapa is that no court will order him to commit to every Sunday, or any other visiting schedule. From the court's point of view, ordering a father to see their children is impossible. Imagine it - would the police show up at his house, march him over to see his kids, and stand there for the whole of Sunday to stop him just charging off somewhere?

I agree with you that it's very unfair on the kids. It's good that you have the phone records you can show your daughter when she asks about it.

I'd ignore the demand for the "period of trust", and repeat the letter that Huppopapa suggested you send. No parent who actually cared about their kids' emotional well-being would make such a conditional request!