Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

So, our neighbours have taken down our chimney...

28 replies

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:04

... what do we do now?

(Also posted in Chat).

OP posts:
Collaborate · 02/08/2014 22:06

Check house insurance for legal cover and see a solicitor next week.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 02/08/2014 22:11

Ermmmm... That sounds extreme. Agree with solicitors.

MisForMumNotMaid · 02/08/2014 22:13

Do they realise? How did you find out?

Are you talking because if lines of communication are open thats got to be the first thing to try - you'll still be neighbours at the end of this.

HeyN0nny · 02/08/2014 22:21

Light a fire and smoke them out of their house?!

What have they said to you so far?

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:22

We discovered it as DH, away for a week and only back last night, went to see what the pile of rubble was that was blocking the shared passageway as the dormer they had been ordered to remove by the Council as it contravened planning law was mostly made of plywood.

DH went and told them (politely) to reinstitute it and make good the damage to our roof and she, erm, went off on one, blaming us for all the problems they had encountered in their project, the fact she was still having to sleep downstairs, the fact we had sought advice from the Council re: their building work, which had resulted in planning enforcement being threatened against them due to illegal building, that we asked her not to allow the builders to work till gone 10 pm, even on Sundays and when she knew our children to be ill ...

We have taken some (informal) advice from my BiL, a commercial property lawyer, but we were unable to leave an answerphone message for either our insurers or the Planning Officer in charge of their case.

We have legal cover with our home insurance.

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 02/08/2014 22:24

Its not a planning matter - it might be a building regs matter - it is definitely a legal matter!

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:25

Over the course of their building, we have approached them when we've had concerns but have not very far. In short, they don't see why they can't build whatever they want, where they want. As we are middle houses in a terrace, you can see why that doesn't work. You'll see some of the other problems we've had if you search for me, e.g. no proper notification or consultation under the Party Wall Act 1996, scaffolding obstructing a right of way ...

OP posts:
mousmous · 02/08/2014 22:27

call the insurance, they should have a hotline open and should be able to send a surveyer to see if the structure is still safe.

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:28

Oooh, Mistle, you're a planner, aren't you? I read the gymbalow thread for the first time other day, and I'm certain you advised on that.

Do I not need to talk to the Planning Dept at all, especially as I actually met the Senior Enforcement Officer by accident the other day when he came out to have a look and handed me a card with his direct line on and told me to call if I had any problems with the build?

OP posts:
TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:29

There doesn't seem to be an out-of-hours number for them, mous.

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 02/08/2014 22:31

Enforcement - potentially about their dormer - but planning really won't have anything to do with removing your chimney - really need to look to the lawyers and or building regs there.

I suppose that, as you've got them involved before you could try them - and your Local Councillor - but I don't think that the planners will really have much to go on.

MisForMumNotMaid · 02/08/2014 22:31

So i'm guessing your lovely law abiding neighbours have a party wall act agreement in place for the works with associated building insurances!

party wall act

Does sound like an email to planning marked urgent and calling your home insurance claim line to see what can be done is in order.

Pooka · 02/08/2014 22:39

Unless you're in a conservation area, you don't need planning permission to remove a chimney, even someone else's. Hmm

I would as a first priority contact the building control department (who may, or may not, be part of the general planning/development department at your local council. I would also leave a message for the planning enforcement officer who may have 2 hats on as it were - some local authorities combine enforcement functions of both building control and development (planning) control. At least keep him in the loop (and he may have advice re a particular contact or local authority building surveyor covering your area.

Fwiw at our local authority the building control surveyors are separate to the planners, but in the next floor and there's a lot of liaison between the two functions - I.e. They check when building regs apps come in to ensure that they have planning permission, or planning permission would not be required. When large developments start, they tell the planners so that they can get onto discharging any conditions there might be regarding trees/additional details required and so on. Enforcement in the planning team have a closer relationship with the building guys since often when someone has started someone without getting planning permission, they may also not be concerned about getting the appropriate building control approvals.

On top of that (so you've covered telling the council what the hell they've done) your buildings insurer will also be able to provide legal advice and may send out their surveyor to assess to damage.

Honestly - what an absolute nightmare and what fuckwitted neighbours you have.

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:41

No, Mis, they do not and I had sought advice about the lack of that on these boards recently!.

OP posts:
Pooka · 02/08/2014 22:42

The Hmm face was at the stupidity of your neighbours taking down your chimney! not at the idea that planners might be the people to contact, or the fact that you don't need planning permission to remove a chimney. :)

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:47

Pooka Building Regs and Planning are separate can you tell I've been on the phone a lot recently?! but seem to liaise quite a lot. They did apply for Building Regs for the kitchen they plan to extend but not for the loft (and I genuinely didn't know that and dropped them in it early on). Their previous builders told me it had been signed off, but I doubt that and ought to chase it when more pressing problems have passed.

I agree with your summary of the situation and, guess what? neighbours the other side also have builders in (but they do at least have planning permission and I have a contact at the Council to address concerns to, as they are part-funding it under aids and adaptations or similar). Nice and quiet here not.

OP posts:
TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 22:48

Oh, and you might not need pp to remove a chimney, but isn't it criminal damage to remove some one else's without their consent? At the very least, in removing hers, the Party Wall Act would have been needed ...

OP posts:
TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 23:15

101 are not interested, saying it is a civil matter (polite but definite).

OP posts:
Marnierose · 02/08/2014 23:43

If it's civil it's going to be a long expensive road. They sound like dreadful neighbours :( I hope you get it all sorted.

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 02/08/2014 23:59

Marnie, it's all in limbo till we can actually speak to the Couuncil/the insurers/the solicitors/the mortgage company on Monday morning. FWIW, I agree with you and could do without it. Until now, we've not had a lot to do with them, both sides satisfied with saying "hello" as we passed in the street but a sewage pipe unmended for 9 months and seeping into our garden and then this building work has certainly soured relations.

OP posts:
mom1983 · 03/08/2014 13:27

Happened to my parents they told them to put it back or pay them compensation as they were wanting to overlap the roof making an eyesore to the back of the property.
They just put it back and changed their plans as the other sides bro in law had illegally passed it through planning department!
It is a civil matter, I'd get insurance, a solicitor and threaten action. Good luck

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 07/08/2014 00:21

Well, ...

Out insurers weren't especially interested (we had a rather heated exchange as to what was "malicious damage"), though they did make a note on the file in case there was damage due to the exposed roof/broken tiles. They are sending me information on our legal cover, to see if we would be helped by that.

Planning said the removal of a chimney was nothing to do with them, as one could remove it without PP.

Building Regs were incredibly helpful and I was speaking to someone very senior for about 40 minutes. It was rather a relief to talk to someone who had obviously been around this aort of thing for a long time. I discovered that their loft hadn't been signed off, as the work was not of a sufficient standard, that fees had not been agreed (he didn't discuss this with us, natutally, he was reading a list off his screen) and that the plans were unclear (there are, apparently, to be three bedrooms in the loft and no one can quite work out where the side dormer is to be). Building Regs have quite specific and limited powers but he did know his way around the Party Wall Act and it was a very useful chat. He sent out a surveyor to check the chimney. By the time the surveyor visited, a chimney had been rebuilt, which, as far as it is, meets building regs (but it is not as high as the other one nor in the same style, so it will need to be redone). Apparently this surveyor made it very clear that certain things should not be removed (there are some metal struts in the shared passage) and major things should not be inserted without advice from Building Regs. After some questioning, it transpires that, as he inspected the chimney, he noticed two new (can't think of the name, piles?), one timber one metal, fixed into our party wall. *sigh. Also, though a skip has been delivered for which I had to move my car, none of the debris in the passage has gone and, in fact, the weight of it against her fence has caused it to break, so the passage is a further blocked. And,I went out my back door and almost slipped on a large piece of black tarpaulin which had come down; had I been going out with hands full of dirty washing (my washing machine is in the shed at the back) I might easily have fallen badly. I am calling the HSE tomorrow to register a complaint (the onus has changed to be on me to do that, the helpful man at Building Regs told me).

We have received legal advice, which is to employ a party wall surveyor PDQ, as they are the place to start, are cheaper than a solicitor and can always refer us to a solicitor if they get no resolution. We are currently trying to find a reputable one.

Unbelievably, the other side, who HAVE PP and whose work is funded by the Council under aids and adaptations (or similar) also blundered. I was actually on the phone to Building Regs when I went outside (to look at the chimney) and I realised the builders there had removed a fence on our property we had told our neighbour we wanted to stay and were digging foundations for her extension well over our boundary, having had to lift bricks from a paved area and move some of our bits stored out there.

Well, being a little more versed in planning law than I was previously, I went politely but definitely ballistic at them. They said they tried to knock to warn me, but I kept repeating "That's not good enough! That's not how it should be done!!". One also made the mistake of telling me to calm done, at which point I rounded on him and told him not to speak to me like that. I also tried to convey the phrase "the straw that broke the camel's back" but, though he's been here 15 years, neither my Albanian nor his English was up to the task. Anyway, work was stopped, contractors called, .... I was especially annoyed as, knowing the work they were to do, I had raised my concerns with the Council's architect and have a text telling me not to worry, that no party wall work would be done till he got back from holiday (mid-August) and that the work to be done would not need the Party Wall Act. There is a polite but annoyed text awaiting this man on his return, telling him how I am looking forward to us talking so he can explain what went wrong in his absence, and how angry I am as I raised these very points in advance. After all work was immediately halted, after the legal papers were brought over in person by an architect/contractor, after a temporary fence was erected to protect my children from the deep ditch over our boundary, after many apologies and the use of the workmen to move, under my direction, anything I thought might be damaged by the work and after talking to DH, I signed the papers and work restarted. Being oh-so-English, I made my displeasure clear to anyone who was unwise enough to say "Are you alright?" by emphatically replying "No, no I am NOT", which threw quite a number of people, as it is a common opening gambit.

As an aside, we are installing some temporary fending of our own this week-end: being unable to do proper work on our fence, we never-the-less want to make certain boundaries clear and, TBH, I want to draw up the drawbridge and hurl missiles at anyone unwise enough to come close.

Oh, and, the none-chimney neighbour and I share a frontage (there was, I assume, a divider there years ago, but it is open now). Anyway, our gate is broken and wedged open, for the children's safety and till we have the moment to mend it. As hers is kept shut, the builders are traipsing through our gate, sometimes knocking it off being wedged, which causes aggro, and they have dumped loads of packing near her bins, further blocking her gate. I know it is nothing compared to other stuff I have mentioned, but seeing in them come through it and acroos my line of sight is driving me bananas and I am going to convey this to her tomorrow. I imagine little success, as she shrugs and says she has no idea what the builders are doing but, if they persist, I shall tie it shut (warning our great Postie in advance) and all of us use hers. Grrrr!

Think that is all (to date!).

Copied and pasted from Chat.

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 07/08/2014 07:39

Sounds as though you have made great progress. Get that party wall surveyor appointed pdq!

Rosa · 07/08/2014 07:46

Amazing what peope, think they can do...Good luck with your ongoing battle.....

TwoAndTwoEqualsChaos · 08/08/2014 19:38

To cut a long story short: a party wall surveyor has been out and we have been advised that we will need to go to law for resolution.

After the children are in bed, DH and I will need to have a chat, but he came out at 6pm, so we've not had a chance yet.

OP posts: