Reasonable Access

[NetFrog]

Having seen my children almost every day, my own and my step children for 10.5 years I am now having to see a solicitor regarding access.

Today was the first "arranged day" that I was forbidden to see them in some time although there have been previous occasions for whatever reason.

I have been having an "out of the house" relationship with her for the 2.5 years we have been apart, in otherwords I left 2.5 years ago but we continued seeing each other.

I have booked an appointment with a solicitor, having been left no choice and that is several weeks away as the recommended one seems to be quite busy.

I would like to know what is reasonable to ask for in the way of access

The usual arrangements were every Friday from 3-7, then Saturday nights through till Sunday at 7. I would also attend swimming midweek and other various activities and was usually round at the house every second day at least with the occasional time where there was a 3-4 day gap. Basically we had an ad hoc arrangement and I got to see not only my 2 girls but my other 3 step children very regularly.

This has now stopped, I can provide some details but due to mumsnet rules not all. Basically we have had a huge falling out and have no choice but to get formal access drawn up. (catching her in bed with another man)

Although I am not happy with this, I am thinking of asking for every second weekend, every second birthday, every second christmas, and easter. Plus every second week in holidays. As I have my own business and work from home I can be fairly flexible.

Is this normal? What would be considered normal? Obviously I would like as much as possible and every second weekend means I only see them every 2 weeks :-(

Any opinions on what is reasonable would be greatly appreciated.

She does work part time, half weds, half Fri and half Sundays.. These would be the days I would normally see them, around her working hours, plus the usual activity runs I would do each and every week. I do understand that she has some commitments, I would just like to know the norm though for access.

There is no one arrangement that suits all families. Children aren't possessions to be shared between parents. Arrangements should be child focussed and meet the needs of children. Younger children often "need" to spend frequent short periods of contact to bond with both parents but school aged children tend to be more settled if they have longer less frequent contact with fewer handovers. Sharing the quality time at weekends and during the holidays, mothers/fathers days, birthdays, and Christmas suits many children with perhaps one or two overnights midweek.

Agreed on the fact that it does need to be child focussed. Of course it does, in an ideal world I would see them every day and we would all enjoy having the benefit of each others company and parenting.

Mid week stays would be wonderful but this has never happened. Not once in 2.5 years, all be it I have resided with them mid week, just never them at mine. (holidays they have of course been here mid week, I am talking term time)

Definition of reasonable is of course difficult. My children love it here and went to school in my local village, the local school being aprox 200 yards from my new house. However they have since moved 30 miles away which obviously is a 60 mile round trip which I have most weeks been doing twice a day several days a week.

Child focused means that they still attend their normal activities, which I agree with. And that they spend enough time with me to enjoy having their father as an active parent still. I do not want them shuffled around from pillar to post every day, I just want to ensure they are happy and that I have a good idea of what is reasonable. I have not been to a solicitor before regarding access, obviously access changes due to childrens ages and parents circumstances and day to day activities. Their mum is a very good mum in a lot of ways, I am not asking that they are taken from her, just that things are shared and the children are happy.

I do not know what the "norm" is in these situations, i just know that the "norm" for them has now been disrupted and something formal needs put in place. They are not tools in any way, I just need to have something formalised and am looking for advice for what is reasonable.

For example: Every second weekend means we see each other only every 2 weeks. I am happy for mid weeks, more than happy. Is this something I can ask for?

I think the standard minimum is every other weekend and a midweek every week. I think.

Thank you pie and chips person ( funny name but I as netfrog so cant complain!)

So a mid week is not too much to ask for? Remembering they now live 30 miles away so I will have to take them to school the next day. Now considering they spend 30 minutes on the bus anyway this will not be too much of a difference.

Many parenting issues aren't black and white. Parents with different attitudes do different things and when parents are separated how the differences are resolved is very important. Of course there needs to be some changes to routines but generally children do better after parents separate if many of their routines are maintained.

There is no reason why you shouldn't ask for midweek contact although you need to be aware that judges and court child welfare officers have different attitudes too. Some advocate children living in two homes and others think overnight contact during the week is disruptive and believe every other weekend is better for children.

Going to court tends to leave parents feeling resentful and resistant and is better avoided if at all possible. When parents have no empathy or understanding of each other communication becomes distorted and problems aren't resolved constructively. A negative downward spiral of provocation and retaliation develops which has a detrimental effect on the long term emotional well being of children.

Mediation is usually worth a shot because it may assists parents understand where each other is coming from so that communication can be improved and compromise found and problems now and in the future can be then resolved constructively. Relationship counselling to help with the emotional aspect of separation may also help divorcing spouses maintain reasonable and measured views of one another. Someone having an affair is usually a symptom of underlying difficulties with the relationship in the first place and both spouses/partners are often implicated in the problem.

How old are the children?

Forget what `the norm' is. It is something that a lot of people use as a base of negotiation.

It is better to work on the assumption on what is best for your children - not what is `normal', nor what you or your ex wants. In an ideal world you will discuss this with your ex, come to an agreement and then implement it. Of course, in the real world you may differ in views or take your personal wishes into consideration.

One thing to remember is though - and a lot of fathers forget this - that you are a parent as much as your ex is and it is wrong to think of it as `asking for contact'. You are BOTH the parents and as such neither you has a legal basis to dictate to the other.

If you are unable to agree court is your only option. Of course, you should try mediation and it is now a legal requirement prior to a court case but it is important to remember that only a court order is technically legally binding (and I say `technically' because anything ordered in court can be taken back to attempt to change things - on top of the sad fact that the Family Court is notoriously reluctant to enforce their own orders when they are broken).

Do what you can to come to an agreement with your ex. Court is the worst possible outcome if it is at all possible because if you and your ex dislike each other now there is a good chance you will positively despise each other if it goes to the court arena.

Finally, you should consider contacting Families Need Fathers - a national charity to help separated parents. Your story is very common and you'll come across plenty of dads (and these days more and more mums) in the same situation who are part of it. It has a free helpline, support meetings up and down the country and plenty of sources of advice.

Thanks lost dad, I have replied to you via pm and will take your advice, I need it. Things are out of control.

owl Capone, my girls are 7 and 9. My stepchildren are 12 14 and 17.

It is now 7 days since I seen or spoke to them other than the eldest as he is old enough to contact me directly.

I am devastated.

I see a solicitor on the 26th. But that could take months.

Bear in mind that status quo is a powerful argument. In short, the longer a routine is (including `no contact whatsoever') the stronger the argument will be against changing this.

A week isn't long. But bear in mind that if you speak to your solicitor in a week, organise mediation which could take at least a month, put an application which could be a further 2 months before you get to court and then another month before contact starts you are potentially looking at September before contact takes place and Mum's solicitor is arguing that the children don't know you any more and contact needs to introduced slowly at a contact centre (which you could be obliged to pay for).

This IS a nightmare scenario of course but I've seen it played out a number of times. It's the way a lot of dads end up sitting in a contact centre for months. For this reason it's why I tend to push things along as quickly as I can for people I assist because it can be one of the biggest obstacles you face.

Don't worry. but DO act.

a friend of mine has his kids one week and their mum has them the next - they both have the kids for a full 7 days each before they go to the other parents. for birthdays the kids go to whoevers parents birthday it is - doesn't matter who has them that day - you main gain a day or loose day, same arrangement is made for GPs birthdays. both parents live in the same town and live near the childrens school so its not a big deal in that sense.

Lostdad that is a complete nightmare scenario. I get home.on Wednesday and can aaccess a pc so will speak to you more then

Please don't worry - there are people about who have gone through it and found out the hard (and easy!) way and can tell you what the best and worst thing to do is.

Thanks Peggy but I find that unlikely to be a choice. She recently moved 30 miles away and even when I lived 200 yards from the school having them mid week was never an option despite my repeated attempts.

Thanks lostdad. I'm trying not to give up hope, it is early days but emotional ones.

I know the long term scenario is

Not easy on mob grrr

I know the long term scenario is good. But the short term takes so much control from one parent and puts it firmly in the other that it is scary.

I have options. I just dont want to use them. Solicitor in 6 days so hopefully that an some conversations with you will help

netfrog it should absolutely be an option for you - as lostdad has said you are a parent too and you should not be dictated too.

Hi Peggy

You are absolutely correct, it should be an option. However I know from past dealings when I have tried to gain any mid week overnights tthat I may as well be kicking a re-enforced brick wall.

The current situation also is that my older step children have been forced to remove me from facebook and not to contact me so I have been completely isolated

2 weeks ago I was doing all activity runs, paying for her car mot and tax, purchasing oil for her heating and driving 120 miles most days to ensure everyone was good and happy. Now I have been completely isolated and lost everything.

Time will give me access but the damage and lies in the meantime carry on. With no short term solutions, it is crazy......

Thankfully home right now and I can give my full thought to all that is going on.

As well as being denied access to my 2 little girls (ten days now), my 3 older step children have also been involved. Their privacy settings in facebook have been set on high and I have been removed from their accounts. They are 12, 14 and 17 with birthdays all this year. Their accounts have been modified by their mother as they would not know how to do this.

I have NO legal rights over them, however having looked after them for 10.5 years in every way I can I just do not see how it can be right to do all this.

My 17 year old step son has severe learning difficulties and will be going out of his mind with all this........ As far as he is concerned I am the father figure that brought him up and that he can come to whenever needed, she has forced his password from him and gone into his account and ensured I cannot speak with him, and he needs me as much as the little girls if not more.

I am not sure what my status is regarding access to them, but surely 10.5 years of parenting counts for something... I cooked cleaned, did activities and took them to school. Worked, paid and ensured everyone was looked after.

Now nothing....

11 days today - and no sign of it getting any better. I have managed to contact my eldest and despite good advice on being whiter than white my heart is crying out to just see my kids.

On good advice I should sit here, and do nothing. I'm not sure I can do this. I can do another week of this at most.

Good to speak to you last night. Hope you got some help.

Call those numbers we discussed and get things moving!

Regarding your stepkids, the fact that they are not biologically yours is not an automatic reason to deny access. When I divorced my first husband, all contact was arranged for both children: the son that is ours and the daughter that he'd raised from being a baby. Any good judge will realise that you are part of these children's lives, biological or not.

By the way, things are very emotionally wrought for you at the moment, but in time you may manage to get back on good terms with your ex, especially if you can put aside her infidelity. That has got nothing to do with the kids, it's just an emotional issue that is clouding the main issue. I know it's devastating but if you can put it aside, especially when dealing with the courts and officials, it will make things easier. I had a horrendous divorce the first time round, but ten years on, we're on speaking terms. More than that actually, I know I can call him if I need help. So things can change. For years we wouldn't speak without a solicitor present, but the other year he drove me all over the county when my daughter (his step-daughter) was in labour.

I would go for mediation first, even if nothing is resolved, it shows that you are willing to go the distance for all these kids. That alone is a huge plus in your favour. Good luck, I hope you can get this sorted.

NetFrog - listen to lostdad and get things on the go. Delay is your enemy!

Hi All:

Thanks for chatting lostdad - it put a few things in perspective and gave me a few pointers which is good, I do realise that I need to remain calm throughout all this but wow that is hard to do!

Dwerf: In years to come I am sure this will just be a blip, I hope so. I'll never forgive the infidelity but as parents we have a long long road of partnership ahead, perhaps we can get on speaking terms again, all be it right now my treatment is such that it is hard not to be emotionally blinded. 2 weeks ago i was buying her flowers and chocolates, all the time she has been seeing someone else. It is all to fresh right now.

Cookedchips: I am not delaying anything, I do understand what you mean though. we are closing in on 2 weeks without me seeing the children and i am weighing up every option I have and ensuring that whatever crappy processes I have to go through are done in as timely a manner as possible. Thankfully I have every means available to me to ensure things go as quickly as they can, however research tells me that even if I consume myself with this, which is what is happening, there is always going to be a delay which is maddening.

In general: As far as I can see she has been lieing to this new guy, lieing to me and lieing to her parents. By cutting me out she can carry on this theatre play and i don't think she will ever be willing to admit to her family and friends that she has been deceitful. So I have this very bad feeling that this is going to go the full term.

A full two weeks today and I have still not seen my little girls. I have found out however that she has a solicitors appointment tomorow and I have one on Tuesday.

I have done a number of things to gain a visit and been denied at all turns, however I have heard she is willing to let me have supervised access but no overnights. This is despite me having them every weekend for 2.5 years.

On a better note. My 17 year old step son virtually begged me to.pick him up today so i did get to see one of my children. He gave me a huge hug and we both cried

At least he is old enough to make his own decisions as opposed to my younger children who do not have a clue as to why thir father cannot see them.

Solicitors soon thank goodness but im not looking forward to any of this one bit...