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Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Which specialist solicitor do we need - tenanted land with part gentleman's agreement

22 replies

Myfriendwantstoseetheworld · 10/05/2014 21:23

My Grandpa has decided to move into a home after an attempted burglary. He has been very shaken and I think he will come to live with us to settle a bit and see, but he wants some advice on what he is potentially selling. He is completely in control of his marbles but just very scared to be alone at the moment.

The house has around 50 acres of land. Some of this is equine land and rented to a nice friend of the family which goes back a generation. The other half of the land is agricultural and the man who rents it recently passed his tenancy down to his son. There was no indication this was coming and it was not something we had thought could happen, but did. He has been advised this now means the land can't be sold until this son dies, or at least he could potentially make it very awkward and ask a lot to be bought out.

My Grandpa wants to build on the land as the village has no other space for houses and before a developer bought it on his death he wanted to build just 5 or so large houses rather than it be turned into high rise flats/Barratt Homes type cash-cow. He is not quite sure how to proceed and he feels let down by his land agent who didn't forsee the tenant handing over to his son and said nothing can be done other than move to block it happening again (which he has done). What we really want is a specialist solicitor who can act relatively quickly to advise us of all of the options and possibly the best way to proceed with the tenant. We have an architect but scared to do any planning permissions until this tenant is out of the picture or at least legally bound in some way.

Many thanks in advance.

OP posts:
abitofanangrybird · 10/05/2014 21:31

I'm no expert on these matters but we're farmers and rent some land from the government (defence estates). We have to negotiate succession rights in advance. We have a one generation succession agreement in place at present but they won't agree to the generation after that at the present time. Are you 100% sure that your land agent is correct that he was allowed to pass the tenancy over to his son?

kirako · 10/05/2014 21:35

I don't know about this, but guess that if you can get a hold of the contract covering the rented land, and details of the price it's rented for etc, you could have an initial chat with a conveyancing solicitor and get advice on who they recommend.

It sounds like there may be a few aspects to consider- contract law (was it legally handed down to the son? Are they in breach of any aspect of the contract?) As well as the conveyancing side of selling land for development.

Anyway I've bumped the thread.

Myfriendwantstoseetheworld · 10/05/2014 21:53

There was no negotiation at all. We are concerned the land agent is useless and doesn't really know his stuff despite being in a well regarded firm. We haven't had legal advice at all on that. If it was illegally done can it be reversed?

The gentleman's agreement is a little patchy which has been problematic. Loopholes weren't tied down and there have been problems with the tenant keeping up the land - not trimming hedges or mowing for months.. Rent has been late and had to be chased on more than 3 occasions, but now the older tenant has moved out Grandpa has been saying it was due to his age and he didn't want to push it. However we now think it may be a way to argue they aren't looking after the land properly?

OP posts:
eurochick · 10/05/2014 21:55

You probably need an agricutural land expert. An experienced rural property lawyer might also be able to do the job.

Myfriendwantstoseetheworld · 10/05/2014 22:32

Thank you - the land agent we has is from a large reputable company - the only other one in our area works for the tenant and so it would be a conflict of interest.

If anyone has any recommendations for the south east?

OP posts:
Lonecatwithkitten · 10/05/2014 22:34

Michael Alexander at Alexander's in Huntingdon was recommended to my parent's he gives advice to both agricultural landlords and tenants and has a lot of experience with agricultural succession law. My parents were very happy with his advice and the work he did for them. A straight talking chap who knows his stuff.

Myfriendwantstoseetheworld · 10/05/2014 22:37

Aha! That is very local indeed! Thank you Lonecat Flowers

OP posts:
LadyMercy · 11/05/2014 10:53

OP, this all sounds a bit odd. Can you tell me whether the tenancy is a Farm Business Tenancy (FBT) or an Agricultural Holdings Act Tenancy (AHA)? Different laws are applicable to different tenancies.

It's possible your land agent dropped the ball here, but it's possible they didn't. Is there a chance the tenancy was in the name of Tenant Senior and Tenant Junior?

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 12:06

It's AHA. No, the father was the only named tenant and had been for about 5 decades.

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 12:09

Name change fail. I'm not cut out for a life of subterfuge!

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 12:54

This is an excerpt from his last email to me. I am collecting him tomorrow for a short stay with us, so any advice before then would be wonderful.
"I have still not received the last two annual rents and no effort has been made to deal with the trees fallen over the footpath. Aren't non-payment of rent and bad estate management grounds for termination of the tenancy?
Also, I have been told that under the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 (sections 6 and 37) the tenancy may not be assigned without the Landlord’s consent. Is this true? As you know my consent was not even sought."

LadyMercy · 11/05/2014 17:38

Hi Lion,

I'm afraid there are a lots of if's and buts to this, as i think you do need an expert to actually look at your specific paperwork. Do you have access to a copy of the signed agreement?

If it is an Agricultural Holdings Act Tenancy and was signed before 12th July 1984 the tenant can be entitled to two successions. I.e Tom signs the tenancy, when he dies his son Dick takes over, and when he dies his son Harry takes over. Obviously that's a bit generalised.

I think it is very likely that the person that told your Grandpa he can't sell the land was misunderstood/wrong. He cannot sell it with vacant possession, he would have to sell the land with the 'sitting' tenant in situ - obviously the land would be worth less which is probably why paying them to leave has come up.

I think the first thing you need is to talk to the agent and find out whether 'Tom' has formally retired, and how the tenancy has been handed over to 'Dick'. If this has been done properly 'Dick' is now the tenant. If it hasn't, you may be able to object, but 'Dick' might still get the tenancy.

Once you've established that, you can start on the issues such as late rent. This may give you grounds to get the land back.

Sorry that is a bit mammoth!

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 19:33

I've called and checked and yes it was before '84 so I imagine it is legal. Think the trouble is that Grandpa was expecting faster responses from the Land Agent. I was keen on him getting a solicitor many years ago when the house was built and the first issues with the land not being kept up began to arise. I do think we need a legal specialist now rather than a land agent. I am concerned that the person Lonecat recommended is just another land agent. Am I right in thinking an actual Lawyer would be a better idea at this point?

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 19:35

(the tenant's 'secret' house built behind bushes that had no planning permission I mean)

LadyMercy · 11/05/2014 19:45

Christ, is the secret house on your Grandpa's land?!

Whether you need a land agent or a lawyer depends on how complicated, nasty and expensive you think it is going to get and what you want in what time frame.

A good land agent with all the proper qualifications and experience should be able to sort this out. Like any profession, there are levels of qualification and experience.

Similarly a good lawyer - and make sure it is an agricultural property lawyer - should be able to sort this out.

If you have lost faith in your current agent, you need someone else. But you might need current agent's co-operation with paperwork etc

Lonecatwithkitten · 11/05/2014 19:46

Michael Alexander is a land agent, but he has contacts with the right solicitors if you need them. 12 years ago he suggested a solicitor for my Dad to use to check the final agreements, but he had one all the leg work.

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 19:59

He is charging a £350ph and is very slow. I do think we have lost faith in him in all honesty. We approached another agent first but it turned out they worked for the tenant. We could try another land agent but I am a bit worried that the current land agent would then think we were passing him over and the new agent would feel bad for taking someone else's work which could start things off on the wrong foot. Paperwork just one issue of this!

Yes, they built a house in the late 80's which was hidden behind trees. Started off as a barn but now is bigger than the 'house' by far and they appear to live in it. I think the land agent told Grandpa too many years had passed to object now and no one objected at the time (didn't go for permission as far as we can tell).

LadyMercy · 11/05/2014 20:19

If you would like PM me the name/firm of your agent and the one acting for the tenant? I might be able to suggest another one, then you will have two to speak to about a fees estimate.

Your other option is to go higher up in your agent's firm. You could ask to discuss it with one of the senior partners?

babybarrister · 11/05/2014 20:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 21:10

He has found a solicitor in Sevenoaks that specialises in Agricultural Land and is going to see them in the morning. He seems to prefer this route now and I think I am happy he is trying another way.. We shall see what comes of it anyway.

Thank you for all of your help! If it doesn't go well then I may PM you to pick your brains Lady Smile Thank you again.

Lioninthesun · 11/05/2014 21:12

Yes baby it was a shock how much he was charging to seemingly do so little Sad

LadyMercy · 11/05/2014 21:23

Glad he has a plan. The solicitor will be able to work through the tangle! Good luck Smile (Hopefully he will be cheaper too!)

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