Relocation with child - Advice needed

[edinburghmum1985]

Hi there...

I am relocating from Scotland to England next year and wondered if anyone had any advice on this topic or the 'leave to remove' court orders?

I have been separated from my child's father since pregnancy and he is not registered on the birth cert nor does he have parental rights & responsibilities although he does see her for a few hours each month.

Should I apply to the courts for permission to relocate? Someone had mentioned that there may be chance if we relocate he could have the courts order us to come back? Surely not?

Any advice appreciated :-)

Is moving in your DC's best interests?

Have you discussed your proposal to relocate with the father? If he agrees there is no problem. Otherwise even if he doesn't have it already he could apply for PRR and prohibited steps to prevent/reverse the move at least until proper arrangements for contact are in place. To avoid the hassle and uncertainty you can either negotiate and agree arrangements or apply to court for a specific issue order for permission to relocate.

Thank you.

Yes I believe the move is in her best interests as my partners new job is higher paying than his current job in Edinburgh which will allow me to give up my employment and be a stay at home mum.

It is worth mentioning that my toddler has an autism spectrum disorder, the area we are moving to also has autism support services and schools near by. It is very difficult juggling all my child's appointments with paediatricians etc with my full time work so this is an added benefit to me being a stay at home mum.

No he does not yet know of our plans to relocate, my solicitor has advised that we move first then tell him along side giving contact arrangements. This will avoid him being able to apply for PRR and a subsequent court order asking that we stay in Scotland. I plan to tell him that we will visit when we are in Scotland which will be a few times a year. If each visit was to be a full day then the hours of contact wouldn't actually be that far away from what he recieves right now. It may also be worth mentioning that we do not co-parent, my child does not live in the same city as him and has never even been to his house.

I'm not sure but it seems hard for both the father and child. A few times a year is very different to once a m

Month that should say. I don't know the law but it seems unreasonable not to tell him beforehand.

Yes it does sound unreasonable but at the moment I feel so sick of being reasonable with an unreasonable person.

My Scottish lawyer says I can move anywhere without his permission as he is not named in the birth cert however she mentioned that he could have a court order us to come back to scotland which is what worries me although I cannot find example cases of this online. Has anyone heard of this before? I can't see why a court would uproot a family and order them to move back for someone who has never even spent 1 night with the child.

My child is not aware that he is her dad, he is more like someone we meet at the play den to play with sometimes in fact up until recently she became very distressed in his company.

i did this move in reverse while with a 1 year old and pregnant. i was married at the time - my ex knew i was moving. i have never even been subject to a court order and if he thought for a min he could do this he would.
this is your life and your child's. i would move.

Unfortunately I can't remember the citation from the top of my head but there was a case in Scotland where the father had contact but didn't have PRR and the court refused permission to relocate and granted the father PRR. SM v CM is an example of a mother attempting to remove children from the jurisdiction of the Scottish courts to England and being ordered to return. Take particular note about how the court viewed the mother moving to be with a new partner. See;

www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011CSIH65.html

So as your solicitor indicated, although strictly speaking you don't require permission to move because the father doesn't have PRR, it is possible for him to apply to prevent/reverse relocation. Whether or not he would be successful is a different matter. Every case is treated separately and the outcome of someone elses' case isn't necessarily relevant to your case where the circumstances are very different.

www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011CSIH65.html

Thank you very much for the info, much appreciated & useful.

I feel my case differs in that we were never married & he had left to be with another woman months before my child was born. He lives in a city an hour away from us, always has done and my child has never lived with him. The main reason for us relocating is for my partner to start his new job which will provide enough income for me to stay at home to care for my child which is really what's best for her. We couldn't do that here it's too expensive,plus we will be moving from a 2 bed flat into a 3 bed house with garden which is much more child friendly.

I am probs just fearing the worst but my partner & I would like to marry & have more children, I can't imagine being in a situation say next year or the year after where we are all settled in our new home with another baby on the way and then suddenly a court order appears ordering us to move back to scotland?! Where would we stay? Where would we work? And who would fund the 2nd relocation?!

I should also add that the biological father does not pay maintenance.

Hope - I would be interested in hearing more about your experience.

Thanks guys.

The cited case is very different to your circumstances and the previous behaviour of the wife was taken into account - removal of children before and future of her current relationship seems to have influence the judgement. This case however does not set a preicedent on moving children from one jurisdiction to another, rather a set a principles to be considered by the courts.
edinburghmum i have pm'd u.

If you move and are settled for several months it's difficult to see how moving back would be deemed in the interests of the child. However the problem is the uncertainty and hassle. If an application to prevent/reverse the move is made in the shorter term the courts won't know the circumstances until they actually hear the case.

Would he have to apply for PRR before he could apply to reverse the move? Any rough idea of the cost of all this for him?

Fingers crossed he doesn't oppose anything.

He would have to apply throu the courts. If u both have solicitors it will be expensive, if u self rep less so but still court fees to pay. No legal aid for this type of case.

Not a lawyer but the solution seems obvinous to me - you offer to go back to Scotland once a month to see him.

He then won't see any difference, your child quill get to see him and presumably grandparents every month and you get to move to somewhere where you have a better life.

I know the travelling will be a pain but as a SAHM you can be a bit imaginative about it eg going during the week during school holidays while your partner is at work so you still have family time at the weekend.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Does anyone know if I am served with court papers before we relocate, do I then reply stating that new court action will have to be raised in the district we are moving to or would I have to stay in Sctland until the court case is done with?

He has been in touch today to say that his solicitor is finalising the papers for court.

Does anyone have any experience in this area and can advise on timing?

How long would it normally take from a solicitor finialising papers to a case being called in a sherriff court?

Is there any way to delay this?

Feeling frantic now :-(

Recieved a letter from the legal aid board yesterday stating that he has applied for legal aid and I have until next week to oppose it. I have sent this onto my lawyer this morning but I am wondering if I can reply to them myself? Is there any way to delay this process?

It's rather academic now but he could have applied for PRR and to prevent a move at the same time. Even if you moved the courts in Scotland would retain jurisdiction initially. Can't see any advantage in delaying the process nor opposing legal aid if he is entitled to it.

BTW I don't think it is correct that legal aid isn't available for this type of case. Legal aid is different in Scotland than England and the last time I looked on the Scottish Legal Aid Board website it was still available for Parental Responsibility and Rights and orders regulating PRR such as Prohibited Steps.

Thank you - I'll be opposing on the grounds that he is working full time and claiming legal aid fraudulently. He has been investigated for benefit fraud etc before too.

If his claim is denied am I right in saying that he would then have to fund the court case himself?

Do court proceedings/the issuing of court documents run along side the claim for legal aid or does the legal aid claim have to be decided first?

Any advice appreciated?

I'm not a lawyer but I'd be careful about being seen to be "sabotaging" his ability to fight his case through legal aid, rather than concentrating on the facts of the case in the first place. It suggests that you are worried that if he is able to take the case to court at all, that you are not confident about the outcome.

I'm not confident about the outcome at all. I believe he would be awarded PRR and he has made it clear to me in the past that he wants this as a means to control me and make my life difficult. It has very little to do with my child's best interests.