Bailiff's visit - very confused

[WeAppearToBeAlright]

Just reposted this from Chat - I didn't realise there was a seperate legal section - hope someone has some words of advice?
_

I've just got home to find a letter saying the Bailiffs were here, wanting to get into the house and remove my goods.

Apparently I have an outstanding Magistrates Court Fine, and by virtue of Schedule 4A of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, they can enter by force if I wilfully refuse blah blah blah, bringing locksmiths and the police.

confused

Leaving aside the odd name of the legislation quoted, I've had nothing from any Magistrate's court. I just 'phoned the number and the man said he couldn't access the details right now, but it was from April 2010 - keeping a vehicle without a valid licence.

Does that mean car tax? I've often been a bit late paying, but I've never not paid at all. From 3 years ago?

I'm a bit worried now, because he wants more money than I have - but has anyone else had anything similar - with this odd legislation and after such a long time? (I have a different car now, and couldn't remember for the life of me if I was late renewing the tax that year or not). Could the DVLA tell me what's in their records?

Any advice welcome!

Bailiffs have the power to force entry if they are collecting an unpaid magistrates court fine. However that power is generally only used as a threat. It is very rare for them to actually enter by force.

The legislation reference is not correct. The power to force entry comes from Schedule 4A of the Magistrates Courts Act 1980. This schedule wasn't in the original act but was added by the Schedule 4 of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004. Some websites seem confused by this referring to Schedule 4A of the DVCVA and/or stating the date of the Magistrates Courts Act as 2004.

Keeping a vehicle without a valid license refers to non-payment of car tax. The DVLA automatically issues a fine if you are more than 2 weeks late paying. It seems they think you were issued with a fine and failed to pay so they took you to court. I would suggest you start by contacting the DVLA. They should be able to tell you the details.

OK, first of all do not let anyone into your house. No matter what the situation, whether you owe the money or not, it is very, very rare for them to be entitled to enter by force: however if you let them in once, they can then come back. So keep all doors and windows locked while you get the matter sorted out: if anyone does turn up, talk to them from an upstairs window or insist that they step away from your front door while you come out, with your keys in your pocket, and lock it behind you. Don't let them in to use the loo/talk to you 'more comfortably sitting down' or any old crap like that. And move your car. Don't leave it outside the house. Lock it in the garage if you have one.

Nearly all bailiffs are basically gangsters with badges, liars and crooks, even when the debt itself is legitimately owed. I recently had a letter from a bailiff trying to charge me £400 for a council tax debt I had already paid.

Go here for detailed, specific advice and don't worry. As I said, most bailiffs are dishonest bullies and can be outwitted. Just stay cool, calm and civil and don't let them in.

Don't worry !

Many thanks for replying, both of you - on the one hand, your advice helps, and I'm less worried - I've been on to the DVLA and they should send records back within three working days they think. I'm 'phoning the bailiff back at lunchtime today when he says he'll be at his computer and have all the details - so then I'm going to have to wait until Monday to 'phone whichever court he comes up with and see what's going on.

He'll wait a few days, won't he? Just because he's decided to pop round now doesn't mean I have to pay him instantly does it?

.... on the other hand (I hadn't forgotten the other hand), I'm dealing with a lying, crooked dishonest bully of a gangster? That most emphatically does not make me feel better.

Thank you for the link - I'll have a read later today. So for now, lock everything, no-one comes in, move the car. Some reading I did last night suggested that if you can pay the fine at court (and it's likely to be half the amount listed on this man's letter), then you cannot legally be forced to pay the bailiff's fees (they can ask and bully, but they can't enforce) - is this true, or is this internet bravado?

Well, I 'phoned as arranged but his ipad's not working (reception is dire around here) so he couldn't check. He's being very reassuring about the whole thing, and telling me not to worry, we'll check it out, he'll get the details on Monday morning and nothing will happen until we've spoken again. He's actually being very nice about it.

Which makes me even more nervous.

So, Monday I hopefully get to find out what Court, what for, when, and if it really is me/my fine they're after. So I can 'phone the Court and find out how much.

Is this usual, for Courts to wait 3 and a half years then bang, send a bailiff out? I may well have been a few weeks late renewing my tax - I'm not nearly as organised as I should be - but being asked for nearly £600 for a few weeks' delay over 3 years ago seems just unpleasant! Not that I have that amount spare anyway...

Gawd, I hate this worrying. Right, socks up woman, and back to work...

Oh, they are often nice and plausible, but they are often still lying. There is a limit on what they are legally allowed to charge, but that doesn't stop them from trying to get you to pay more.

Please don't worry. Most of their 'power' lies in scaring people, and once you have paid the fine to the DVLA the bailiffs can't touch you no matter what they say.

Thanks, SGB.

I've been googling all evening and have thoroughly confused myself.

The letter he left says "blah blah.. enter your premises by force should you wilfully refuse to pay the outstanding fine and costs".

So - if I don't 'refuse' as such, but just ask for a breakdown of costs and to see the warrant first - he can't enter by force? In fact, even if I did 'wilfully refuse' would he have to get another warrant to allow him to use force?

It says I must "make immediate payment" to the Bailiff - does immediate mean on the spot if he turns up, or are you allowed to wait until, for e.g. the banks are open, or you've seen proof of what he's claiming? It says if I don't he'll return with locksmiths and the police.

I think what I desperately need is to find out which Magistrate's Court this was, if it's a genuine debt, and if so, pay it to the court online - on Monday. If I do this, can he still bully his way in to collect his company's fees, or do I have a bit more time to work out what to do about those?

If it went to court it would be on your credit file. Perhaps do one of the free credit check things?

No, you do not have to pay the bailiff immediately - or at all.

You can pay the original debt to whoever the original debt was to.

You do not have to pay their 'costs', 'fees' or 'interest', now or ever afaik (whatever they claim).

If you query in writing what the debt is for and ask for a detailed breakdown, they can't do anything until they have provided this.

If you do not recognise the original debt, and it's the first time you have been chased for it, then a payment of the original debt in full is the only thing that you need to pay. I have been in this position more than once (comes from moving often, bills get lost!), and have paid only what I thought was actually due, and ignored everything else. Have never had a problem.

Oh, a small delay would be wonderful, while I get my head around what's going on. Does an email count as 'in writing' (as opposed to verbal), or is it taken to mean an actual letter, do you know?

Free credit check thingy's an idea, too. Might try that now.

I usually send things by email, I think it should count as 'in writing' for most purposes.

The key is to be able to produce a paper trail if they ever claim you didn't do it.

Firstly, they won't come. They are trying to scare you into paying a lot more than you actually owe. Secondly if they turn up at all, you are perfectly within your rights to tell them to sod off and not let them in.

Well surely there must be some legal basis for their charges, else the courts are deliberately employing people to run an extortion racket?

I suppose I'm just worried that if I keep fobbing them off, and they keeping adding charges for visits and letters, then if I DO have to pay their charges in the end I'm just making things much much worse for myself?

If it's all a big bluff, I'm happy to bluff away. But are people absolute certain that they can't take me to court for their fees, and end up getting another warrant on their own behalf?

Some of the advice on here concerning bailiff's charges is incorrect.

You are still liable for the bailiff's charges after paying off the original debt to the creditor. However they can't take your goods just to recover their own costs. They would have to take action against you themselves to get their money back.

Thanks, bridge. A lot of people are equally adamant that they can't. I will have to investigate further.

So I 'phoned again today and he's 'busy' - he'll 'phone back tomorrow morning. Is there a point to all this delay that I'm missing? Surely it wouldn't take him 2 minutes at some point during the last four days to look up what I need? Can he not pay another visit for 7 days or something, so he's fobbing me off until then so he can charge more for another visit?

What's going on!

Oh, and I emailed the DVLA and they said yes, a fine for no tax/no SORN - but they didn't tell me which car/when/how much, just that it was a fine! They say "Penalties are only passed onto debt collectors to pursue if the DVLA receive no response to the original penalty letter" . Could be a generic email, but no mention of court or bailiffs there, just fines and debt collectors.

Why will none of them tell me what they're talking about ARRRRRGH.

Have you tried telling the DVLA that you did not receive the original penalty letter (which presumably you didn't, as you have no clue what this is about?)

Bah. Well the credit report idea was a nice one, but there was nothing on there - so I checked and Magistrates Court fines aren't included in credit checks anyway.

Liara, yes I told them I had no idea what was going on. Bailiff was a bit unclear on the 'phone, but he said, I think, 20th April 2010. I did move in the middle of February that year, but even so, surely 4 weeks is pushing it to get summonsed, a court date, sentenced, nanoseconds to pay the fine and boom, distress warrant?

But maybe he meant that was the date of the offence, not the warrant? Because my reading also suggests that distress warrants from M. Courts only last 6 months - so he surely can't be trying to enforce a warrant that's 3 years old. But if that was the date of the offence, why has it taken 3.5 years and no communication before the sudden arrival of the bailiff. I just don't understand .

Well, he didn't call today. I 'phoned him but straight to answerphone, and no reply from the DVLA to my follow up email asking what car/when/what court/how much etc etc.

So I still know nothing. I'll 'phone again tomorrow morning and if there's no luck I'll email his office formally requesting some information. Hope that doesn't send him lairy.

OP, you were obviously fined in your absence, and since you had no idea about the fine or the DVLA letter (moving house is a common problem) don't pay the bailiff. Tell him that you want to make what is called a Statutory Declaration at court - this is simply where you go along to your local magistrates' court and swear on oath that you were unaware of the penalty notice and subsequent fine - the legal adviser will ask you to sign a form to that effect, and then the original matter will be quashed. What will happen then is that the DVLA will be notified of the Stat Dec and can re issue the penalty notice. This situation also arises when the DVLA don't hold an up to date address for the registered keeper, which is also an offence. But because you were fined in absence and the fine legally enforced the sum owing will now be higher than you would have had to pay if you had been aware of the original penalty. The bailiff cannot enforce against you for the debt if you make a Stat Dec so don't worry - he will have to return the papers to court.

This happened to another MNer fairly recently - if you search using these terms you should be able to fined the original thread fairly easily. In her case she had received a court summons for an unpaid DVLA fine but the process is the same.....she was further down the process than you are. HTH

Ooh, thank you, BCBG. I'll look up that Stat. Dec. thing - and then make sure the DVLA tell me what the fines are for the original thing, and the not updating my address quickly enough, and pay those, and hopefully we'll be done!

I hope to have a very busy and productive lunch hour tomorrow!

Have you checked with the DVLA to make sure the fine is owed? Make an appointment with your local CAB before paying anything. It might be an admin error and you shouldn't have been fined. Bailiffs don't just turn up on your door without you receiving first some notification by letter that you had been fined etc.

Yup, I've checked. They say there is 'a' fine, but not when, where, what for, how much, if it's gone to court - nothing! I've asked if they will provide me with more details, so am waiting to hear back.

Maybe there was post, Sticky. Not here, but to my old address all those years ago when I had just moved. But I don't understand the timing. If the warrant was issued more than 6 or 12 months ago then I understand it has run out by now anyway. If was issued in the last 6 or 12 months, then the DVLA knew I was living here, so why haven't I received anything?

Am thinking of turning into a giant cockroach, hiding under the bed and having done with it all.

OP, the DVLA know your current address, but for some reason you never got the letter in April 2010. Once you have made your Stat Dec the DVLA will reissue the penalty notice and you will - if you accept your error - pay that penalty. If when you receive the reissued notice you believe it was issued incorrectly - for example because you had had road tax - then you can challenge it then. The Stats Dec is the easiest and also the only proper course of action where an individual is faced with court/bailiff action over unpaid fines of which they were unaware. The process is easy and the Court staff will assist you to complete it correctly. Just to explain the process a little further - it sounds like this: back in April 2010 a Penalty Notice was issued by the police for unpaid tax - this would be triggered by an out of date disc being spotted on a car, for example (there are no days of grace for road tax). The police penalty notice would be sent to the address held by the DVLA. You moved and the DVLA address probably hadn't been updated swiftly enough. The penalty notice was not responded to and so within six months of that date a letter would have been sent summonsing you to court for the offence. When you failed to appear, the court would have fined you in your absence and added costs. Typically if the court doesn't know your means the fine is in the hundreds rather than the £80 or so it would have been if you had paid the original penalty notice. The fines notice would also have gone to your old address, and then a long time later ended up back at court as unpaid, and then eventually handed to the bailiffs to enforce. Typically, when the bailiffs can't get a 'distress warrant' paid, or if it is disputed, the bailiff must return the papers to court, and that is when you attend to swear out you Statutory Declaration. The DVLA have since had your address updated, so they have eventually married the two up. However, if you never received the original letters and were genuinely unaware of the proceedings, then you are entitled to say so and have the process stopped and restarted.

Also, while you are in the process of sorting things out with the DVLA, the bailiff cannot attempt to force entry in your house and has to back right off.

But, like I said, a lot of bailiffs are basically crooks and liars. These days they are all working for private companies, subcontracted to the council, and many of the companies are dodgy as fuck, so stand your ground and be polite but firm: you're sorting it out with the DVLA, not with him. The fact that this one seems clueless and doesn't answer his phone suggests that he will be easy enough to see off.

Hi

I have had a very nasty incident with Marstons yesterday and am wondering if anyone can offer some urgent advice...Am pretty desparate and any help would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Paula

Paula, start a new thread.

People will just click on this and not realise you're asking for help and will give the original poster advice. Good luck.