Do i have rights as a mother to challenge social services and my ex?

[smiles007]

Dilemna, in short, can i insist that my 4 yr old daughter is re-questioned regarding an alleged disclosure she apparently made to my ex's new partner about her 12 year old brother?
My ex has always made it obvious that he wants his daughter with him even though in the beginning he insisted on a dna test to csa, whilst still having access. I could have stopped this until test was done, but did not. Eventually he opted not to go ahead with test as it was going to cost him money.
My ex who is a playworker in a childrens centre has recently moved in with his new partner who is a support worker and has in the past done work with myself and my son.
Both these people know that over the years i have had problems with my son, but they also know that i have done my absolute best to get advice and support to help with things. This has not always been easy and sometimes i have had to do self-referrals.
I believe they are both putting words into my daughters mouth and convincing her that her brother is nasty and naughty. I believe the reason for doing it, is to use it against me to apply for custody.
My son was interviewed accordingly and only had my partner and duty solicitor sit in with him. He denied everything, but social services work on statistics and probablility. Can i challenge this?
They are saying my daughter cannot and will not be questioned again, and i will have to accept, we may never get to the truth.
This is so damaging and i cannot believe this is allowed to happen.
I suggested to her dad that we try and get to the bottom of it, as her parents we need to find out what might be really happening to her. He was very hostile and shouted to me, that no one, not me, not him, or anyone would be questioning her again.
My argument on this, is if it was his son, being accused, his attitude would be different.
My concern is my daughter, i have been having sleepless nights and nightmares thinking that if it's not happened from this end, then is it happening there.
As he has parental responsibilty, he has opted to keep my daughter, and i have had to go to solicitor to get access, even though Social worker said he had to make sure i still got to see her, as i've not done anything wrong.
This is such a short version of events, and cannot convey our character and honesty, but i believe, my ex has done this in spite to gain his daughter especially now he has moved in with a partner who is a support worker. Between them, they know the law and what happens, and they will know that, my daughter cannot be questioned, so therefore they get away with it.
I have been left, in the dark, with no immediate support for myself or my son, while the social worker allocated went off on her 10 day hols.
Not fantastic, due to my son having high anxiety levels anyway, and me just being a mother to two children who i felt that i was taking good care of. They really are never on their own. In fact my partner always jokes when he comes, as he says, i see the ambilical cord is still attached then!!!
The question is, who is right? Social Services and my ex, saying she should not be questioned?
My daughter is quite willful and does not take any crap from anyone, and in fact does her best to wind her brother up.
She has told me, she wants to come back to live and sleep and that she is not afraid of me or her brother.

it is a very awful and no matter what the suituation the op also has my sympathy.

children of that age are very rarely directly asked when interviewed,if it was very cut and dry from the actual interview that yes something defo had happened it would be unusual for certain things not to happen from a police side and it would be unusual for a sw to say they were acting on the basis of probability.they are more likly to behave as if something defo has happened without clouding the water.

from the info given it dosnt sound like any support has been offered with regard to the son seen as hes 12 you would think and expect involvement with him but again only if the proffessionals involved felt certain with or without a conviction.

unfortunatly sexual abuse mudslinging is rather more comon than one would like to think perticularly with under 5's and with the cases i have personally been made aware of most of the accusors do tend to have possitions where they are aware of very basic cp procudures but not so much at a level where they would be aware of how much damage it can cause to a child. its shocking but something that a huge amount of dv services are aware happens as well as many other awfull ways a abuser will use to attempt to remove dc's from one parent.

its one of the reasons why if a child discloses sexual abuse to a adult the adult should under no circumstances question them about it.to try and make sure the child hasnt been led.

obviously i am not in anyway saying that sexual abuse dosnt happen ofcourse it does.and in most cases of allegations being made they will be true just that its not unheard of for some adults to manipulate things.

fwiw i dont think the op has said she thinks her daughter has lied she thinks she has been manipulated a child who has been manipulated is not a liar and is just as much a victim of the adults abuse.

obviously i dont know the op nor do i know anything about this actual suituation but i dont think she needs to be accused of not beliving her daughter.

My son got out of the dentist chair and now has to go to hospital because he didn't like the taste of something she was going to flush through his tooth. He has to take antibacterial hand lotion everywhere with him if he goes out. He's a fussy eater. My daughter, is very chatty, outspoken and since she was small suffered from something called vulginitus? and has been under hospital for long time. She is ususally sore and has cream etc on a lot of the time, that's one of the reasons, why i find it difficult to believe my son would have done such a thing.

We have had to have a playworker over time help us, to encourage my daughter to be able to allow the consultants to examine her, and although she has enjoyed the play work, she is still not keen on being looked at. Even when i take her to my own local lady doctor she is extremely reluctant to co-operate. How would my son get her to do what they can't? My children do not leave me, they both follow me around the house, or at least my son who will at times go in his room to play games or lego constantly make sure i'm there. I have probably only ever a handful of times in 12 years gone out and left my son with someone. I do not have family living in the area and have few actual good friends. So even if i wanted to do more without them, i would be limited to how often and with whom they could be left with.
And now having got the letter from solicitor stating that her dad has concerns regarding her health in regard to what i feed her, tells me that this is more than what has been instigated. Even the duty solicitor we had, who i never got to speak to until after the interview, via the phone, stated, that she felt that my ex was using this as a springboard for custody. She felt that my son responded very well in the interveiw considering they really grilled him and came at it from every angle to try and trip him up.
Spoke to the sw tonight and she has said, i have been very good in co-operating with them and have been putting things in place to make sure they are both safe when together and therefore, i should not panic. She said, my children are not known to their service or me and therefore this is just them airing on caution. She said that she cannot get into the ping pong game between myself and my ex and that she did understand that he was going to use this to his advantage and she couldn't personally stop that, it would be down to family lawyers and court.
Meeting at son's school tomorrow around safeguarding him and the best way forward and hopefully a report from the sw to apparently give to the solicitors.

if your last post exactly describes what the sw has said and the suituation them im sorry to have to tell you this but yes your ex is about to go down a residency route and by keeping hold of her he is attempting to provide a status quo (i.e what the child is used to) and its highly likly he is going to make allergations against your son in family court and probally you as well.

he is probally hoping a court will say leave dd with dad whilst ss conclude investigations when they have and found nothing wrong he will probally then be saying but she lives with me now it would be unfair to change that.

if this were my child and i was compleatly apsolutly clear on the suituation being as you have described and ss actions were genuinly a formality. i would be asking my solisiter to go to court asap,if they refused i would get a second solisiters advice on the matter,if both said the same then i would make a decision based on that. but just not doing anything and letting it drag out without very good reason (if the risk of being unsuccessfull outweighed the risk of him being able to drag it out long enough for the court to leave her there) could be fairly risky.

out of intrest has he contacted child benefit ect yet? as if hes done so fairly quickly its also a indicater that hes going down that route.

has your son been offered any support of any description yet? if hes not done anything then he will need some equally as such if he has then he will also need some just a different type.or is it all waiting for the meeting tomorrow?

im going to pm you some usefull numbers for some inderpendant legal advice.

am i correct in thinking that he has now alleged that not only is she at risk from your son but also from you? as if so it sounds like hes upping things quite a bit.

one thing you do seriously need to think about and i would think the sw would have allready indicated to you but are you apsolutly certain the allergation has totally come from ex and his partner? and if so if your daughter validated it or not?

if she has then you do seriously need to change your approach because when directly validating abuse it would be very very unusual for a child not to be telling the truth i personally would allways belive the child in these circumstances.

by directly validating i mean actually saying yes he did this to me,and confirming that yes she did tell a perticular person.even if she did it in a 4yo's way.

if she has then you do need to face the real possibility that it did happen it will be hard to think about but you will need to. if that is the case try not to be at logger heads with your ex and his partner,as you will all need to work togather to safeguard and help your dd. at the same time as you helping your son.

I can tell you categorically, that there is no legal basis to keep a person who is even on bail for rape and sex with a child away from living with children.

I have been told that social services can recommend, but unless there is a conviction, not enforce, that someone is removed.

The "person" who abused my child is currently living with a 12 and 15 year old, much to my disgust, because their mother believes, despite significant evidence to the contrary, he is innocent, he is on bail for some very serious charges, yet has access any child he likes, because after all, he is innocent in the eyes of the law.

And according to the police, and SS, that is just fine and dandy.

and I don't believe children lie, but I do believe some adults will tell whatever lies can get them what they want.

What I would do is get a residency order, then refuse to hand her over.

mchappy thats exactly what i would do as well but only if it was certain that it was the adults involved lying.

Thanks, i am not sure still how to immediately talk to someone who is in the know, but i am certainly going to try. I will see how meeting goes today and what the outcome is, then do what is necessary.
For the record, it's not that i don't believe my daughter, i am just aware that she knows that her brother is generally being told off or on time out, and because he has been a challenge to me most of his life, i do know that he likely to have said something rude thinking it was funny and she possibly jumbled this up with other things. She told us the week before that her dad keeps a gun to kill the foxes when they come in the garden. Just to give an example of the stories she may tell.
She has never ever liked being examined by the doc or consultant, and she really lets us know, so i do not see how my son could have done, what no one else has ever been able to do. I always go the the loo with her and always have due to her ongoing bowel and urine problem.

My son is 12 and quite sensitive at times, but is feeling like no one believes him, so what's the point. No support, until last thurs a more advanced sw came to spend time with him and they seem to get on quite well. My son did tell me after she left that she tried talking to him, but he kept changing the subject, and just carried on showing her his lego media that he's created on the laptop.
My own solicitor has told me to wait, till sw has done risk plan and report and then we may ask for things to be returne to how they were, but also said, that the longer my daughter with dad, the stronger his case. Why? she been at mine 4 years. How can 5 weeks give him monopoly?

to needanswers, how can i find evidence to that fact?

I don't know where you would find evidence of it, that's how it has been for us, and that's what the police told me when I found out he was back living with children.

Makes me sick to my very stomach but there you go.

for some reason i cant pm you so heres the number you can phone them asap if you want

rights of women 02072516577. they will be able to answer your questions

OP

this thread worries me. It cannot be that on an online forum we are openly discussing such serious allegations, and there is ALOT of confidential info about both your DS and your DD

plus the nature of the allegations levelled against your son seem to be very serious

I really appreciate you need help and support, but I must say I feel very worried reading this thread, and quite upset

hand on heart, on I dont think AIBU is the appropriate place for this

sorry, and please get external professional advice

Didn't mean to upset anyone. A local chaplain advised me to use this website. I have been very much alone and unable to get support for myself or my family. I don't think being left for 3 weeks without info initially was very fair.

Update now is, meeting at my son's school took place, and both sw's on the case have agreed that as a family because we have co-operated and signed up for everything that needs to happen, they are more than happy for life to resume as it was, and for my daughter to be returned.
However, it would seem that her dad is still not in agreement with this and i have today contacted solicitor and she has sent letter to state that, sw's are happy for things to resume as they were so therefore, please will he do so as from Monday 8th Oct.
We do all believe now that this was defo an excuse her dad was looking for to springboard for other things. Which is why i still believe, they both misused what my daughter may or may not have said, or put things in the wrong context.

im sure you havent upset or offended anyone, im guessing the concern is that this forum is public and a person who could identify you could read the thread.

if the suituation is as you describe and your ex has yet to go to court or obtain any court orders did you know you can just collect her from school and nobody can stop you as long as she goes willingly with you, if she were my child thats what i would do.i would then not hand her over for contact with dad unless i had a court order stating i had residency (you solisiter can advise on obtaining this) because if dad has pr legally he can also do exactly the same thing.

just be prepared for him to make more allegations against your son you could ask your sw about how to make certain your son is protected from this but in the short term dont leave them both togather unsupervised.

Thanks, it is now something i have asked my solicitor, to see if i can also put in for residency? Also can i do that, just collect her and refuse to let him have her? So far, although it's been difficult, i have been doing everything that has been asked, and it seems that it is now coming together.
I think some of the problem has been that all of these professionals including my daughters dad and girlfriend all work for the same organization and maybe they are all afraid of not getting things absolutely right. It just has not helped me or my family.
Feeling a lot happier now i know she can come back and that sw's are saying they don't have a problem with it. That's got to be better than how it all began.

I'd ask Mumsnet HQ to move this to Legal for more specialised advice, tbh.

Yes if there is no residency order either of you can collect her - you can ask your solicitor to apt for an emergency order.

I am very dubious of SS when one of the parties involved works for them.

you can't question her and neither can he because you are not trained to do so, you could pressurise her into saying what you wanted to hear and it would be misleading

It's an awful situation but how can she come home if your DS is there?

I hear you want to support your son but I don't hear much support for your daughter - maybe she needs her mum to believe her :(

Hi there
Do let us know if you'd like us to move this to our legal matters board
thanks
MNHQ

op yes you can just collect her as long as no court orders exist that say he has residency i personally would only do it if sw's didnt have a problem with it but as you say they dont and if it could be done without her being placed at risk of witnessing any dramatics or shouty fits from the other parent.

but given that you dont know me from adam,i am just a stranger on the net it would be adventatious for you to make a phone call to your solisiter and directly ask this question.

"is there anything in place that legally prevents me from just going to school and collecting her?"

if i am correct she will say no there isant do it if you wish.

I love my daughter more than breath itself, she is so precious. It is not that i don't believe her. It is complicated. My ex in July moved in with his new woman who happens to be a family support worker, who has worked with myself and my son, given it was a few years ago. I know her reasonably well and have had her in my home etc. Trusted her and told her things. Facts as i see them, we have 2 professional people, who know me and my family well, saying that my daughter has made a disclosure. I have managed as a single mum to bring up 3 children, and my daughter as one of them, for 4 years with all the access with her dad working well. It's not a mean set up, he has gets to collect her every week on a thurs at 5pm & bring her home at 9.30 sat morn one week and actually take her to school mon morn the following week. Rather strange that this has now transpired, given my ex has moved in with his new partner and her being a support worker and him a play worker. They both know my son has been a challenge, especially my ex, because he was with us for 7+ years. Got to the stage where he couldn't deal with it anymore. He was no support during my pregnancy, in fact, asked me to consider termination, as he felt, he didn't want to bring a baby into a loveless relationship. Knowing that alone was devastating, and then later to be told, i was high risk downs but refused the test after much deliberation. He then told me, that if it was born that way, he probably wouldn't be able to stay around. This is going off subject slightly but i want to make it understood that i really do love my daughter and would do anything to protect her. It is every parents worse nightmare to have to think about. But i guess, at the moment that little girl that's gone missing is far greater and sadder news. At least i know where my daughter is and i can hopefully work alongside the professionals now and make things better.

The reason she can come back is because my son was interviewed and the police side of things are wrapped up and nothing else is going to happen from their end. Basically, he has not been found guilty and sw only working with us to be cautious and statistics and probability say it could have happened.
Not sure how to move this to legal, but i am hoping that things are now going to get sorted at the right level with the right people.
Thanks again to everyone that has commented and given advice, and sorry if i have upset anyone, was not my intention. Just so lonely and frustrating when you don't know what is happening and who to turn too.

You can report your own post to Mumsnet to get it moved. Just click on the last comment you posted, in the middle of the three links on the top right, and say "please could this be moved to the legal section".

There are several qualified family solicitors who post on that thread and would be able to give you a rounded viewpoint. On here, people post on gut instinct, which isn't always the best in a legally complex situation.

Good luck. I hope all works out as well as is possible for you all.

Sorry, just saw Olivia has already said you can - I didn't see those updates when first posting.

is there something to protect you regarding this support worker, i thought it was an unwritten rule not to get involved in a family you have worked with emotionally.

Hi santaisNotathreat, i know it has had to be treated delicately, due to conflict of interest, but i can't stop my ex having a relationship with someone he has obviously fallen in love with through his work. But i have made a point of expressing my concerns about both of them.