Intestate death- who inherits?

[LittenTree]

SO as not to drip feed, here's the story- and sorry, but yes, I know I've asked stuff about this before, though this is a different question!

My grandad GD was married to W1 and had 2 sons, one of whom is my dad (was, as now deceased). W1 died very young. After several years of widowerhood GD married another woman, W2, who already had an 18 year old illegitimate DD, born following a fling with a serviceman who died in the war..

GD died and rather oddly considering he had been a town clerk and executor to god knows how many Wills himself, left no Will. So his Estate went to his wife, W2. Late in life, W2 took her DD, now a grown woman, abroad to meet her (deceased) father's family. At the time she, W2, told my parents she'd had to 'redo her Will in order to fly', presumably as her own DD would be on the same plane as her (!) and presumably was a (the??) beneficiary of her Will.

This implies the existence of a Will.

Anyway, W2 became old, suffered dementia, finally went into a home where a Will was signed and died.

The new Will, executed by the DD, leaves the LOT to DD. DD is claiming this was the only Will her mother ever made.

Now, we wanted to see if we could find out if she'd left a previous Will but apparently that's more or less impossible. (I asked on here!)

My uncle, in a recent letter to teh DD, queried why a Will had been done in the nursing home? The DD replied (gracelessly!) what was he implying and that 'if mum had died intestate I would have been the sole beneficiary, anyway'. (Which beggars the question "Why did you make your demented mother sign her apparently 'only Will' if you were sure that, in law, you'd be the only beneficiary?" Of course, the implication is that she wanted to supersede an existing Will where maybe W2 had included both of her DH's (GD's) sons.)

My question is: IF W2 had died intestate under these circumstances, would DD be the only beneficiary, bearing in mind that W2 inherited from GD as he had apparently left no Will, or would my father and uncles have been able to make a claim on that Estate?

Not an expert - but I'm pretty sure she's right, I'm also sure it doesn't matter where it came from originally either, as in once the wife inherited your grandad's estate it's hers and she can leave it to whoevever she wants.

The will was probably done to make things more straightforward after her mother's death, even though she'd still inherit - its all smoother with a will.

I think littentree is correct but there's still the question of whether W2 made a new will under duress/was not of sound mind (who was it witnessed by?)

Did W2 regard your dad and uncle as 'her' children? It might be worth talking to a solicitor I guess.

Sorry, you're LittenTree - I meant tabulahrasa obv

Yes, if your GD left everything to W2 and she died intestate, then her estate, incl. what she'd inherited from your GD would pass to her only child.

www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/courts/probate/probate-guide.pdf

www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/courts/probate/probate-guide.pdf
That's better!

Thanks. I was just wondering why an intestae estate would automatically go to one DC alone, effectively, when there were three DC, that being my dad and uncle, sons of the GD; and her, the DD of W2.

What process would diverted such an intestate estate just to the DD? Sure, her mother died, but so in the process did dad and my uncle's step - mother.

I will open the link later whne I'm on my home PC.

Only goes to natural children, not step children IIRC.

As Collaborate says, under the intestacy rules it only goes to natural children.

Agree - there aren't three children, there is only one - her dd. Perhaps in her possibly new will she left some small bequests to friends and family which of course wouldn't be distributed had she died intestate.

depends on the value of the estate.

Wife or civil partner inherit all personal belongings, first £250,000 of the estate and a life interest (ie interest in cash or use of property during partners lifetime), anything over £250k goes to his children after death of partner.

So if estate was less than £250k then it would have all gone to wife 2 and on her death to her children.

Children = birth or legally adopted (step children only count if they have been adopted)

Thanks, that clears that up!

I am aware that probate has passed but I just want to be sure all angles have been explored. As mentioned in another post, my uncle (81) in particular and my mum are both extremely upset by all of this, the way the DD has manipulated them not only out of the family (GD and W2's) but also the recognition of their place in the family via the distribution of the estate.

The annoying thing is that I could possibly have 'diverted' this outcome had I been 'allowed' to. My dad and my uncle are (were, in the case of my dad) quiet, diffident men who 'didn't like a fuss' thus allowed several instances to pass unremarked upon where the DD could have been put in her place, tbh. An example is my GD's funeral where DD alone spoke to the minister in preparation of the Eulogy (of her 'step-'father, remember) which was duly delivered, with W2 sitting (at her DH's funeral) flanked by dad and my uncle (the deceased's sons) and DD, 'supporting' her mum- yet no mention was made at all of the existence of my GD having 2 sons or a 1st wife. None. Though much was made of how marvellous his life had become since he'd married W2... The minister politely enquired afterwards who dad and his brother were and was shocked and embarrassed to discover that he, too had been dragged into DD's manipulations.

Anyway, I'd've been consulting a solicitor the minute I saw that Will, enquiring about its veracity in view of the fact it was signed in the nursing home where W2 was living due to her dementia. DD is saying 'it doesn't matter, if mum hadn't left a Will, I'd've got it all anyway' which seems to be fair enough BUT we now believe that she, too, knew of the existence of a previous Will, written when W2 was of as sound a mind as possible (she was rather dippy and scatty!) which almost certainly did cut my dad and uncle in, and wanted to supersede it with one written entirely for her benefit! And no, W2 didn't leave a razoo to anyone else, DD would have made sure of that. She's busy playing Lady Bountiful with small 'gifts' to her family with the money, now.

Yes, I am bitter on the uncle and mum's behalf, but I am also angry with members of my family for being so supine in the face of overwhelming evidence that this woman was out to screw them over! Including GD for not, apparently leaving a Will himself.

In order to be assured that you have explored all angles, I would suggest you direct your attention to the value of your grandfather's estate at the time of his death as the thresholds outlined by Kewcumber (above) may have been considerably less at the time he died apparently intestate.

Although he was man accustomed to organising the affairs of others in a proper and seemly manner, it may be remarkable but not uncommon if he neglected his own but, nevertheless, I suggest you undertake a search of the Probate Calendar (National Index) to see whether he did, in fact, leave a Will and, in any event, to obtain a copy of the grant of probate that his widow obtained which may reveal the extent of his estate at the time of his death.

If his estate exceeded that of the theshold applicable to his widow, again as Kewcumber has said, any sums over and above the threshold would devolve to his children, as in his natural children which would preclude his stepdaughter from benefitting in any way other than that which his widow, her dm, willed her share of your grandfather's estate to her.

Had you not mentioned that your dgf's dc have taken a somewhat laid back supine position in relation to their df's affairs as evidenced by his funeral service, I may not have suggested that you make any further enquiries but, as the saying 'apples don't fall far from the tree' has come forcefully into my mind, I personally would not be able to rest until I had satisfied myself that nothing untoward occurred in respect of your dgf's estate.

I thought the GD didn't die intestate but gave it all to the 2nd Wife?

Must re read.

Aah. Sorry OP, as Kew and Izzy say, you should look at the automatic gift to spouse for the year that your GD died

I have cheekily asked in Chat if anyone would be prepared to look at the record in ancestry.uk as there appears to be a record for GD dated 1996. You can get a 14 day free trial (after you have registered and given your CC details...) but I guess I have had enough bitter experience to know that even if I cancel on Day 13, in blood on parchment, that first payment (£107!) will go out and it will become a battle of wills (no pun intended) and stamina as to whether I ever get that back!

I have an Ancestry subscription, and can look GD up for you, but the National Probate Calendar only goes up to 1966 on Ancestry.

Forget Ancestry - any note of a 'record' you may have seen is likely to be is the entry of your grandfather's death in the Registers of Births, Marriages, & Deaths.

You can search the Calendars (one for each calendar year) in the Probate Department at the Principal Registry of the Family Division, First Avenue House, 42-49 High Holborn, London, W1V 6NP. Be aware that although your dgf may have died in, say, the year 2000, probate may not have been granted until 2001 or later.

If you cannot attend in person, the Postal Searches Department is in Leeds and a copy of the relevant document will cost c£7-8.

I suggest you give the Principal Registry a call on 0207 947 6939 or email [email protected]

Also bear in mind that many wills are left at solicitors' offices and it may be the case that your dgf made a will at the time of his remarriage and lodged it with his then solicitor.

If he subsequently had little to do with the solicitor, or if that person predceased him, your gdf's will may be mouldering at the back of a filing cabinet somewhere.
If any of your gdf's contemporaries are extant, or perhaps younger people he worked with are contactable, it could be they may know whether he developed a noteworthy relationship with a particuar solicitor in the course of his duties.

Your searches may transpire to have been something of a wild goose chase but I'd rather chase geese than live with unresolved questions.

Thanks so much for the offer. I was able to ascertain the date of death etc and have now applied to the probate office to see if there was a Will, and probate.

OOI, if there was a Will, is there anything we can do now, since he died in 1996? We certainly knew nothing about it!

The problem with unresolved questions is they tend to create more questions and that way madness can lie

I would suggest you wait to see what transpires from a Probate search before getting ahead of yourself, so to speak.

However, in the event that your dgf left a will which his executor(s) did not follow to the letter, or there was no will but his estate exceeded the relevant threshold for his widow to inherit outright and the residue was not passed to his dc, there will be legal remedy abeit that, depending on any sums involved, it may not be cost effective to pursue the matter.

You are not wrong there, izzy

I will await the probate on GD's estate, if it happened.

Do you happen to know (for fear of running ahead, here,) how I would find out what the threshold would have been in 1996?

Knowledge is power! And those geese need chasing!

Details of statutory legacy amounts here:
www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/ihtm12122.htm

Thanks so much, I appreciate your help!

As I fancy my chances as a detective rarely visit this board please pm me when you return with the result of the Probate search and I'll come back to your thread

I will! It might be 'up to 4 weeks', mind, as it went in yesterday's post.