Will has been read, all the savings have magincally "disappeared"

[PowerofAttorneyTheft]

I am a regular who has name changed so I am not identified if extended family spots this thread, I am posting on someone elses behalf for advice of what to do next but think I'll explains details in first person for ease of clarity.

Apologies for the length of what is to follow and have changed a few identifying details...

Edith & Alf married when her sons were young adults and they didn't like step dad they found him cruel and unpleasant. Edith made no secret years that she didn't like Alf for the last 20 years of her life and that she had made a will that gave her share of everything to her sons - very common knowledge amongst wider family, always said that all her savings were for the sons and grandchildren.

Around 5 years before her death around the age of 70 she passed on her main savings passing book containing £100k in her sole name to one of her sons and told him it was for safe keeping as she didn't want Alf to know about the money. A couple of years later she developed dementia and this son and Alf were giving Power of Attorney.

Shortly after this time her wayward son turned up out of the blue and managed to steal £6k from a different savings account - he took all of the passports, passbooks everything and forgered her signature on a cheque etc. They never went to the police. Obviously he never saw the £100k passbook.

She has now died. Before the funeral Alf was on the phone saying there were no savings on around £2k and saying please don't make him homeless etc. Since the funeral he has bought a new car, a new TV and several other significantly expensive gadgets.

In her will the her half of the house is split between the sons Alf gets half as they were tennants in common. Any joint savings were his, any sole savings were for her sons but there were savings in her sole name.

The wife of the son with power of attorney went to the building society with the passbook detailing the £100k and explained who she was and asked if the money was still in the account. They could only tell her, due to confidentiality, that the account had either been closed or moved.

Due to a few other "odd" things said by Alf and NO evidence of Edith having spent ANY of the £100k the son with power of attorney is very suspicious that Alf could have used his power of attorney to transfer the savings into a joint account - presumably they had to notify the building society about the missing passbooks etc and he then could have found out about the £100k account.

Alf has suddenly suggested selling the house and giving the sons their money now. Unless Alf has signicant savings his share of the house is not enough for him to buy a retirement appartment, but if he did have a nother £50k or so he would...

Alf's solicitor who is handling the will wants to come and visit son with power of attorney on Saturday and so suddenly Alf does having not ever asked to see him since Edith died.

What should the son do????

I have suggested he should go the build society in person on in writing with proof of power of attorney and ask about what happened to the money in the savings account as the passbook was given to him for "safe keeping"

Should the tell the solicitor who has handled the will about this, should they be instructing their own solicitor or what

Any advice with what is the best thing to do?

I can honestly say Edith made it very very very common knowledge that she did not even like Alf let alone love him and there is no way she would have signed over the money to him had she been of sound mind

If it was a small amount of money it wouldn't be an issue, similarly if their had been evidence of her having spent money in the last 5 years of her life but there isn't it has just "vanished"

I have warned them if Alf has done something then they will have to report it to the police as it is a serious matter.

shameless bump for the legal eagles

help............

I've noticed that this part of the forum is pretty quiet over the weekend. Hopefully someone with a bit of knowledge will be around tomorrow.

Sorry I'm not much use.

Thanks

I have even pm'd mumblechum

Hi OP, if this were a fresh will enquiry or new PoA I would have been delighted to help, but this is a disputed probate matter. The beneficiaries need to establish the facts from the current probate solicitors and depending on what they find out, instruct their own solicitors (someone who specifically deals with disputed probate - q a niche area-)to take it on.

Cheers, anyone else out there who knows anything about probate any advice appreciated!

It's very garbled, but from what I can gather someone without power of attorney acted fraudulently and the police were not involved. The person with power of attorney hasn't even bothered to check on the accounts. maybe these should be addressed before anything else.

2 people who don't like each other each had power of attorney.

One POA would benefit in the will if the account was in joint names

The other POA would benefit if the account was in her name solely. This POA was given her passbook by her for safe keeping.

We suspect the other POA has abused his power to transfer the money into either his name or joint names. He is claiming there were no savings at all joint or otherwise yet is suddenly very flush

Just not sure what to do first.

There are dozens of potential issues here - it seems to me more of a lifetime Power of Attorney issue than a probate matter, do you agree? I think you are suggesting that Alf has taken Edith's money during her lifetime, not after her death, is that correct?

When the power of attorney was granted, was Edith of sound mind? Was it an enduring power or a lasting power? Was it ever registered? Was it created properly? Did she have legal help and advice when it was created? Did the son with joint power never get involved? Who managed her finances after she lost capacity to manage her own affairs - was it Alf?

You may be able to talk to someone at the Office of the Public Guardian - here but I am not sure who they would deal with if the relevant person is deceased - I'm sure they will tell you how to proceed if they possibly can. Is Alf the sole executor? If so, I would be inclined to speak to the solicitor dealing with the estate to say that you suspect he has misappropriated the deceased's funds during her lifetime and that you will be entering a caveat on the basis that the person appointed is not a fit and proper person - you can contact the probate registry to do this (used to cost £5, but not been in practice for about 7 months so that might have changed - it's not expensive anyway, and you don't need a solicitor to do it for you). This will mean that you'll be notified if an application for a grant of probate is made and you will be given an opportunity to show why Alf should not be executor.

Hope that makes sense. You will need your own legal advice, but in the meantime it might help to talk to the Office of the Public Guardian and enter a caveat.

So would it be a good idea to tell the solicitors who are dealing with the will, that you suspect Alf has abused his power of attorney ASAP and we will be contesting whilst we sort out a solicitor to help us?

I'm not sure about the rest of the detail will have to go away and find out. The power of attorney looks like a proper legal document etc.

The son with joint power didn't get involved much as Alf was nasty and so tbh was Edith and they did not live that locally.

If Alf abused his POA during her lifetime to transfer the sole savings into joint names then he automatically inherited it, or he could have put it into his name?

Had it not been transfered into joint names then sons would have inherited, the money was certainly not spent during her lifetime and we don't know when the account was emptied to know if it was before or after her death as building society can't tell us anything.

I would tell the solicitors who are dealing with the will/estate, yes. Then speak to the local probate registry to arrange entering a caveat.

Is the Power of Attorney described on its face as 'Enduring Power' or 'Lasting Power'? Either of these would need to be registered if she lost mental capacity during her lifetime. If there are no stamps etc on the document indicating that it has been registered, you should be able to check the position with the Office of the public Guardian.

Have the Building Society been notified of the death? Is Alf the sole executor? I'm not sure what the position is regarding getting copy statements from them now that Edith has died - a validly appointed Attorney could obtain copies, but the power ceases on death so suspect that now only the executor of the estate can obtain the copies. The OPG may be able to obtain copies as part of an investigation, I don't know - I've only ever dealt with a case where the person in question was still alive, so I managed to get copies of bank statements on behalf of the Court appointed Deputy where misappropriation of funds was suspected - it will be different now that Edith has died.

Executor is Edith's nephew and is good bloke

Lasting Power of Attorney was given to both using the solicitor who is now administering the will, this was done about 2.5 years before she died.

Spoken to solicitor specialising in this area who has confirmed what you have said (for free!)

Executor to approach building society and find out what happened to the account
Notify solicitor that her personal savings seem to have disappeared after POA son given the passbook for safe keeping around 4 years ago.

The executor should in theory sort all of this out and check the funds were not misappropriated however he could instruct a solicitor to act on his behalf (could be the best option if it turns out to be likely that "fraud" has occured)

The other savings were stolen by other son in 2011, so that may be the time that Alf found out about the savings and persuaded her? Used PoA to put it into joint names?

Edith was incredibly proud of her savings and boasted about them and never spent anything, never sent her pension saved it all etc so the fact that Alf is saying he is penniless makes no sense at all...

Thank you all for your help.

Oh and the solicitor currently administering the will should then ensure the funds from the sale of the house are not distributed until the missing savings matter is sorted out.

Hope you are now in a position to start making progress. I'm not an expert on fraudulent operation of Powers of Attorney although have done advice work on PoA and Deputyship so feel free to PM me if you want to ask anything further. I am a solicitor but no longer in practice as now going to work for HMRC (the dark side!)

Good news that the executor is a trusted and independent third party.

Yes that is a relief.

If the money has been moved in the last 2.5 years it is much more a clear case of Alf being naughty, if it was previous to that it will be much harder to prove and they may just have to draw a line under it.

TBH Edith was very mean and kept Alf short of money ie wouldn't share it with him!! However I think this was deliberate so that her sons could inherit as Alf had been nasty and unkind to them - sort of her ultimate revenge

If it was a much smaller amount of money I think they would actually just ignore it and think he deserved a bit of cash after her being so tight but it's such a huge amount... Edith really couldn't stand Alf...

Families eh!