Do I have any ground under unfair contractual terms regs? (bit long sorry)

[PercyPickle]

Firstly, I admit I am at fault. What I am disputing is the amount of penalty and liability. Secondly I am a regular namechanging because there's a lot of identifiable information in here.

I borrowed some books from the university library (I am a student). At the end of November my account became inaccessible and I was unable to renew my books (they had a new system - it went down a lot). I wasn't too bothered because I was returning all the books and was on sabbatical. Well, dp was returning because dd was having surgery at the time and I don't drive and the university is an hour away by public transport and one of us needed to be with her.

Due to a mix up the books were not returned (he took back the normal library ones) and I didn't realise until I received bills in the post from the university 4 months later. These bills were for different amounts and the phone line to the office was unanswered to clarify. I eventually got an email address from the university and was able to establish what had happened and agreed to return the books.

I have returned all the books as soon as I was able. This did take a while because I was under medical advice not to carry anything heavy at the time due to concerns I might miscarry but that was only an issue from when they made contact not before. Dp had annual leave booked and we returned the books then which was about 4 weeks later and I advised the university and they were happy with this.

The university are now claiming one book has not been returned (it was returned in October before the bills) and that I owe them £150 for the cost of the missing book and charges including £15 per book admin fee. I think this is disproportionately high as I would have returned the books sooner had I known and as my library account was not working I could not have known this. I also feel £15 per book is a lot when the effort involved in sending me letters etc is little more than for 8 books than it is for one.

They had my personal email and home address and yet did not attempt to use them for 4 months - they did send some emails to my university account but I did not access this as on sabbatical. They have not responded to my complaint regarding lack of contact and the charges being disproportionate to the actual losses incurred.

I have offered them £100 in full and final settlement - I think this is reasonable (actually I think this is too much but I need to have no CCJs for work, I cannot graduate until this is sorted out and I cannot prove I returned the missing book) but they are not discussing and want to take legal action instead.

Any advice please?

Sounds a hideous time, to be fair. However, the bottom line is that you're liable for the charges, although you might be able to persuade them to be lenient in view of your circumstances.

No I'm sure it's not relevant minipie. But I wondered if the fact they took so long to contact me on the details given and failed to advise of the conditions in the first place (the second point is trying to use a loophole I fully admit) causing excessive charges to accumulate plus charging a £15 fee per book when the correspondence is the same whether for one book or 20 is reasonable?

other students could not use the books, you should have returned them. you are mixing up serious things (your DD) with forgetting to return books for ages.

pay up & learn from it!

other students could not use the books!

i think the admin for chasing everyone would be way too excessive. as the books were university library books, they prob assumed you would be using the university email. i think you will have to pay, although i am not unsympathetic.

Thank you for the last few kind posts. I was beginning to wish I'd never posted and it really hurt to hear dd's illness being described as a rubbish excuse. I only put it in so I wouldn't be accused of drip feeding.

As I've said, I admit liability but I feel that if the university had communicated more effectively then the charges would have been less. I am very careful to make sure all my details are up to date.

also if the fine was the same regardless of the number of books, there would be little incentive to return them on time.

Oh dear. I'd have hoped a library (or indeed anyone else) would be lenient in those circumstances, but I guess they hear excuses all the time and don't know which are true and which aren't

If you've already tried the sympathy approach, and it's not worked, I think that's all you can do. Legally like I say it can't help you.

The fines are per book. The admin fee is for writing to say "return the books or pay up £X". £15 x 8 for three letters covering all books (should have been one letter but they made an error) seems excessive.

I have provided evidence to the university to get the sabbatical agreed.

I would be asking the Uni how they managed to accept books that actually they hadn't lent! Where are the books your DH returned by mistake? (unless of course they sent him away with them again!)

I think legally you are responsible for the fees due to the technicalities of the returns and late returns.

I would however speak to them again and explain it was a very unfortunate combination of events - including your inability to acess their system - that led to this.

Unfortunatly it sounds like they have you over a barrel as they know you cannot graduate or get the job you've worked towards without paying it.

you will have to write it off i think - unless you wrote, providing evidence of the set of circumstances, and explaining why dp couldn't do it while you were not allowed to carry stuff etc.

Cross posted again!

The thing about not contacting you definitely won't help legally since you knew they were due back anyway.

The thing about not giving you the ts and cs when you signed up might help legally. But are you absolutely sure they weren't given to you somehow? Printed above the library desk for example? Given to you when you first got membership?

Even if you could prove that they didn't give you the ts and cs, I think a court would still say there was some sort of implied contract when you took the books out, which would include reasonable late charges. You'd then have to argue that these charges aren't reasonable - as I say, I don't think you'd succeed here.

I am sorry it does sound like a dreadful time for you. as I say, this is where I'd hope an organisation would be lenient, but if they haven't been I don't think the law is going to help you.

He returned the books to the right library. We were like ships passing in the night at the time so not much time for chatting. I did laugh at the image of DP trying to return books to the wrong library because they were mainly toddler books I think

I feel a bit better after that chuckle :)

They are not replying to any of my correspondence about failure to contact or access to the system.

If I were to write again, put a cheque in for what I think is reasonable as full and final settlement if they don't agree they can always come back to me can't they?

Thank you for the helpful replies.

i think you could write, with a cheque and outlining everything - bullet point types with evidence. maybe sent it recorded and keep a copy. if they then attempt legal action at least you have shown willing? disclaimer - not a legal bod, sorry.

they wont give you your degree until all debts are settled.

They won't give me my degree until I finish the course which I won't for a while so that's not an immediate priority. I'm hoping this will be resolved in a couple of weeks so a long way off graduating.

The admin charge will also cover other things. I am a librarian and charge for the admin involved in buying a replacement copy. Things like the cost of my time in searching out a copy of the book (easy or more difficult depending on the book itself); plus the costs of items like a new book jacket, labelling, security tag etc. Also staff time in cataloguing and processing the book (typing the details onto the library system, keywording and other data, printing and attaching said labels and so on) and the time spent to re-shelve the item. Some of these are professional tasks, some would be done by clerical assistants (sticking on labels etc.). Universities would use library suppliers that do some of these tasks, but charge for them of course.

I don't work in a university library now so my costs are very different. But you can see that this charge is not just about sending out a few emails. The charge might be flat-rate and worked out as an average across all kinds of resources. So, actually searching and and acquiring a rare book would cost a lot more than finding one from a library supply company with a quick online search. Universities have a lot of rare and special items. This might not be one of them, but I would think the £15.00 is worked out as an average cost.

Yes but they don't have to buy new books (with the exception of the disputed one) but they still want me to pay an admin fee.

I don't object to paying reasonable costs but at the moment I am paying £105 in admin fees for one letter and checking the shelves for returned books plus the daily late fee charges.

percy - if you argue like this with your Uni, i think someone will make sure you pay....

I'm not sure if you meant that to sound patronising Wasabi? I'm just trying to respond to the points made on the thread where people have taken the trouble to post them. I won't always agree but I'll try to explain why to help increase my understanding which is why I posted - I wanted to talk this through and get information. Sometimes this necessitates asking more questions or asking for clarification. If you call that arguing fair enough but I won't stop for you.

For the record I don't call people cunts in RL but I do on MN. I don't ask loads of questions or think things through out loud in RL but I do on MN (well in writing but same difference). So no, I don't talk to people the way I do on MN because I don't have the same discussions or conversations.

I am very grateful to everyone who has posted (even when it's not been what I want to hear) who has done so politely and compassionately.

Right....

I'm no lawyer, so I've no idea if there's any legal loophole or not. But I have been in a similar situation when I wasn't able to return books to the uni library due to ill health, and a series of IT fuckups meant I wasn't getting emails nor could I renew them online. I ran up a massive fine. My library has a form to request fines be waived if you don't think it's your fault or you have mitigating circumstances - you need to explain what happened and get your supervisor to sign that the university is aware and has seen evidence of any mitigating circumstances you're claiming (presumably to make sure you're not making it up). They waived mine.

Are you a student, or staff? If you're a student, I might try and get a supervisor or whoever signed off on your sabbatical involved to see if they can persuade the library to exercise some discretion on compassionate grounds. If you're staff it's more tricky, because I think you'd probably be expected to sort that kind of thing yourself. In that case I might write a very polite, calm letter setting out all the bad stuff that's happened to you, acknowledging that it was at least partially your fault the books weren't returned in time, but stating that you believe you did hand over the one they claim was lost - then, again, ask them to waive the fine on compassionate grounds. They might say no, but hey, as it stands you're going to end up paying, so you haven't got a lot to lose.

Thanks for your post Naoko. Hope you're all better now. I'm a phd student but not staff.

Yes I think it's worth a try too :)

Ah, I'm a phd student too (although I wasn't when this happened). Definitely get your supervisor involved then, I often find I spend weeks running into a brick wall of bureaucracy and then one email from my supervisor makes all the red tape go away...

I would try and get the fees waived under compassionate grounds. I think that getting arsey and trying to quote legal stuff to try and get round the fees is only likely to get someone's back up. The sympathy card is the way to go here and definitely get your supervisor involved.