Do I have any ground under unfair contractual terms regs? (bit long sorry)

[PercyPickle]

Firstly, I admit I am at fault. What I am disputing is the amount of penalty and liability. Secondly I am a regular namechanging because there's a lot of identifiable information in here.

I borrowed some books from the university library (I am a student). At the end of November my account became inaccessible and I was unable to renew my books (they had a new system - it went down a lot). I wasn't too bothered because I was returning all the books and was on sabbatical. Well, dp was returning because dd was having surgery at the time and I don't drive and the university is an hour away by public transport and one of us needed to be with her.

Due to a mix up the books were not returned (he took back the normal library ones) and I didn't realise until I received bills in the post from the university 4 months later. These bills were for different amounts and the phone line to the office was unanswered to clarify. I eventually got an email address from the university and was able to establish what had happened and agreed to return the books.

I have returned all the books as soon as I was able. This did take a while because I was under medical advice not to carry anything heavy at the time due to concerns I might miscarry but that was only an issue from when they made contact not before. Dp had annual leave booked and we returned the books then which was about 4 weeks later and I advised the university and they were happy with this.

The university are now claiming one book has not been returned (it was returned in October before the bills) and that I owe them £150 for the cost of the missing book and charges including £15 per book admin fee. I think this is disproportionately high as I would have returned the books sooner had I known and as my library account was not working I could not have known this. I also feel £15 per book is a lot when the effort involved in sending me letters etc is little more than for 8 books than it is for one.

They had my personal email and home address and yet did not attempt to use them for 4 months - they did send some emails to my university account but I did not access this as on sabbatical. They have not responded to my complaint regarding lack of contact and the charges being disproportionate to the actual losses incurred.

I have offered them £100 in full and final settlement - I think this is reasonable (actually I think this is too much but I need to have no CCJs for work, I cannot graduate until this is sorted out and I cannot prove I returned the missing book) but they are not discussing and want to take legal action instead.

Any advice please?

Pay it - you need to graduate & you were in the wrong not returning the books. University books are expensive & other people have had to go without a book.

Really? The full £150? Even though they suspended the service and didn't make reasonable attempts to contact me?

I'm not due to graduate for a while and I doubt anybody went without a book because of course timings and no requests while I was using them.

Sorry forgot to add that the terms of the agreement were not given in advance.

Had I returned them earlier the £15 penalties and accumulated fees would have been considerably less.

I'm not sure that you can criticise their not having guessed that you weren't accessing your university account. It's your responsibility to give them your up to date contact details at all times.

If the terms of the lending were not drawn to your attention before you loaned the books, I don't know where you stand. I'd imagine you will have signed something at the start of your library membership agreeing to some terms or other.

I did give them up to date contact details - home address and personal email. They seem to manage to send everything else to my personal email address but not this

I accept that I should have returned them earlier and would have done if I'd been notified earlier. I also understand that my personal circumstances are not their concern but they were aware - hence the sabbatical. But that's not really relevant. My point is that the penalty is disproportionate.

There is nothing in the original terms about the £15 penalty fees either.

When I was at uni almost 20 years ago there were stiff penalties for non return of books, particularly the short term loans. Don't pay it then & accept the consequences - as I see it you borrowed the books & it's not up to them to chase you with reminders, you knew full well they needed to be returned.

Sorry Helen did you not read the op? I asked someone else to return them when dd was in hospital having surgery. So no, I did not know. I tried to check my account it was no longer active. I assumed all was fine.

As soon as I was aware I returned them having checked it was ok to wait the few weeks due to being on bed rest for suspected miscarriage - an exceptional circumstancd. They agreed.

The university sends all other corresondence to my personal address. I think £150 is disproportionate.

I want to know the legal position is, not what happened when other people went to university two decades ago. Fwiw my first university would have sent a snotty letter after about 2 weeks and were very clear up front about terms and conditions.

You had lots of (rubbish) excuses but then said you would have returned them if you'd known about the admin fee. So you could have returned them - sorry, no sympathy. Pay up.

Actually I said I would have returned them if I had known they needed returning.

Re the fees I did not know about them in advance but £15 admin fee per book seems excessive as the number of books makes no significant difference.

I don't think dd nearly dying is a rubbish excuse. But thanks for your contribution.

The fact that you are saying you would have returned them sooner if you had known about the charges means you were capable of returning them just decided not to. Because of that yabu. You could have returned them, you didn't, you accept consequences.

Up to you if you pay it or not of course, if you don't then you have to accept the consequences of that too.

Er - you didn't realise they needed returning? Oh please - get a grip.

From a legal point of view it's irrelevant whether you honestly thought you'd returned the books but made a mistake, or whether you just failed to return them with no excuse.

It's also irrelevant that the system for renewals was down. You say you couldn't have known they were overdue - but surely when you take them out in the first place, they tell you how long you can have them for? If you knew when they were due, you could have gone to the university to renew or return them - you didn't.

It's not their job to chase/remind you, it's your job to remember when the books are due and and to return or renew the books before then.

The bit where you possibly have a leg to stand on is £150 for a missing book when you say you have in fact returned the book. Is there any way you can prove you returned the book? If not, I think you will have to pay this.

If the book truly is missing, £150 not disproportionate - academic books often cost this much, or more.

The £15 admin fee per late book doesn't sound disproportionate either - as other posters have said, other students have been unable to access the books all this time so it seems reasonable.

I'd pay them.

Sorry I have not said I would have returned them earlier if I knew about the charges. Perhaps I am not clear?

To be clear: I did not know they needed returning. As soon as I did I made arrangement to return them. Had I realised earlier the books had not been returned I would of course have returned them earlier. I had no reason to hang on to them and would not knowingly have done so.

The legal position is you owe the money! But you don't want to hear that & are looking for some loophole but on the basis of what you have written there doesn't seem to be one. Sorry to be blunt but they have high fines for a reason & as someone who is about to graduate I would hope that you could realise the relevance of my post about my university library.

"The university are now claiming one book has not been returned (it was returned in October before the bills)"

Was it returned or not??

I don't understand why you did not know they needed returning? Surely when you took them out in the first place, you knew you could have them for X weeks and then they would be due back?

So your oh accidentally didn't return eight books and you failed to notice eight books in your house for four months? I know you are asking for legal advice but I think you need a bit of common sense here. The uni say £150 or no graduation and a ccj which means you can't work. Surely your future is worth £50?

It's a £15 admin fee per book plus daily charges plus a fee for the supposedly lost book (I can't prove this because I don't have the receipt for the machine and cannot review my account).

These were not expensive academic books. Not that it makes a difference. They managed to write to me on my personal email about graduation ceremonies, re-enrollment, student elections, participating in studies and everything else but not the library.

Yes, you are right I do not want to pay these fees. I think they are excessive in the circumstances.

How could you not know that library books needed returning. Isn't that the whole point of a lending library?

I would have insisted that I had returned the book and that the onus was on them to prove otherwise. However, you've now offered to pay something so I think you are stuffed.

Pay up.

They were in a cupboard in the office. Dd was in and out of hospital so I wasn't working and didn't see. It was a stressful time for everyone. Not that it's the university's concern. My supervisor and faculty have been brilliant.

All books have been returned.

How much are they charging for the missing book? Is it lots more than the cost of a replacement book? If so then I think that bit might be disproportionate and I'd offer to buy a replacement book instead of that part of the charges. (although tbh I think they are entitled to charge you a bit more than the replacement book to cover the hassle factor/inconvenience to other users).

I can't see any way to get around the rest of the charges though. I don't think they are disproportionate. The admin involved may not cost £15 per book but really the charges are to represent the fact that other libary users have not been able to use the books in the meantime.

You haven't answered the question about how you didn't know they were due back - ie. surely you knew when you took the books out that you could only have them for X amount of time.

what the op is saying is that due to personal circumstances, she asked her dp to return the books, which he failed to do. she was then not notified by email/phone that she was using, just her university email which she wasn't using, due to being on a sabbatical. Had she known they needed to go back, she would have done.

however, i think that an unfortunate set of circumstances for the op has led to reasonable charges by the university library.

just seen your post about not seeing them due to DD illness. Legally I'm afraid that is not relevant. You can ask them for leniency on that basis but if they don't give it then you can't use these factors as a legal excuse.

I knew they were due back. I asked dh to take the books back. He agreed but unknown to me returned books borrowed from the local lending library. I went to check account - couldn't get in. Rang library - no answer. Dd took a turn for the worse and everything went crazy after that and I didn't think to check again. If I had not been getting other uni correspondence I would have checked but honestly, at the time I didn't even know what day it was so I cannot swear that.