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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP

31 replies

topdad1976 · 12/10/2011 20:19

Hi, going to be a bit of a long post but please bear with me. In a nutshell, can I stop my (separated from) wife taking my daughter to Switzerland???? Question 2 if the answer of Q1 is no, what are my chances of winning custody of my daughter? she looked after her for 7 months of her maternity leave then I was her full time carer for over a year and a half which I quit my (good) job to do. She left me (I did nothing wrong, didnt even see it comming) and took custody of my girl (now just turned 3). She put her full time in nursery as her career was more important, then relocated about 3 hours away. I moved my life to where she is now living to be close to my daughter but now she wants to move to Switzerland. I cant bear to be far from my little girl hence why I moved in the first place. I hope it doesnt come to a custody battle but what are the chances of winning as a father when in most cases a mother seems to be given priority? Please help.

OP posts:
STIDW · 12/10/2011 21:43

It isn't so much that priority is given to mothers. Courts make decisions ­base­d on evidence and the evidence generally agreed by professionals working with children is maintaining a child's sense of security and bonds is in the best interests of children. When determining who is the main carer the evidence is the established work/child care patterns, which parent did the taking and collecting to school/nursery doctors etc and who does the nuts and bolts of parenting - washing the children's clothes preparing meals etc

Most fathers are at a disadvantage because of working practices. About 90% of men in employment with dependent children work full time inflexible hours and fathers work longer hours than any other group of men. The majority of women (70%) with dependent children don't work or work in part time inflexible jobs to work around child care commitments.

Your wife needs either your consent or permission from the courts to take the child abroad. IF you refuse consent she would need to apply to court for leave to remove and show feasible and practical plans for living arrangements, finances, education, contact etc. The court would also take into consideration any history of frustrating contact, whether the motivation for the move is purely to frustrate contact further and your motives for opposing the move. If the child lives with 50% or about 50% of the time it might be deemed less disruptive for the child to remain with you in the UK rather than relocate again.

HerScaryness · 12/10/2011 23:54

Putting a 3yo in nursery does NOT make your ExW a bad mother, nor is that proof that her 'career more important' than her child. That is a shitty thing to say and you ought to be thoroughly ashamed of yourself for saying it.

Remember if you make this a nasty legal fight, your DD will feel some fall out. It might be a better idea to try and discuss the matter calmly with your ExW to ascertain what her thoughts are on contact/access. There may be reasonable arrangements to be made. Her reason for going to Switzerland may be valid, may be able to pay for more access visits than you currently have.. you need to get to the bottom of it first.

I agree she shouldn't be running off anywhere and not allowing you access, but don't fall into the twat-trap of getting nasty, bitter and combative.

You will play right into her hands if you do.

Get an appointment with the CAB and perhaps contact Fathers for Justice etc, they can advise you on legalities and legal approaches.

RCToday · 13/10/2011 00:03

Is she running away to Swizterland to get away from you?

You are either very committed or very controlling

NatashaBee · 13/10/2011 00:11

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incognitofornow · 13/10/2011 00:15

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STIDW · 13/10/2011 01:16

Yes, I agree. It sounds as though the mother was well out of order unilaterally changing the status, putting the child in nursery full time when Dad was the main carer and then moving to another part of the UK. The law doesn't discriminate between mothers and fathers. On the face of it there is every chance the court won't grant leave to remove because the mother is behaving as though she is tying to minimise the child's relationship with the father.

A lawyer is in the best position to give impartial and independent advice and present cases. Applying for a Prohibited Steps Order may be perceived as aggressive and is only really appropriate if there is a risk of international child abduction. A Specific Issue Order is a more constructive way of resolving the issue, but there isn't a great deal of point in applying for one if the mother is prepared to through the proper channels.

babybarrister · 13/10/2011 07:07

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SoupDragon · 13/10/2011 07:13

I agree with incognito. It was a shitty thing to do and had it been a father doing it to the mother, no one would have accused her of being controlling if she had done similar to the OP.

youllbewaiting · 13/10/2011 07:57

He should be ashamed of himself?

What rubbish.

cestlavielife · 13/10/2011 13:19

lots of things we dont know about the background - what reasons does the mother give for relocating and moving child away from her full time carer?

what sort of contact does the op have now?

does mother have good job to go to in switzerland?

if op as dad is not working then presumably mother can argue she can provide daughter with good life in switz if she working in good job?

topdad1976 · 13/10/2011 18:09

wow, looks like I've opened a hornets nest. Firstly I don't oppose nursery, looks like HerScaryness has a bit of a guilt complex for some reason, I don't disagree with nursery at all and I never said she was a bad mother, please stop looking for a fight because you feel you need to justify your own actions.
Thanks for all the advice, I will contact a few organisations first thing tomorrow. Just to clarify the situation a bit, I have no intention of dragging it through the courts or anything bad, I have a very good relationship with my ex, she wasn't running from me, she moved away because she got head hunted for a better job which she now hates and is trying to chase the big money in Switzerland, We have dinner together at least once a week and help each other out when we can, all friendly. I just wanted to be aware of all my rights before hand in case she decides to take the job. I am in no way controlling, I always rolled over for her, I'm just one of those 100% devoted dads that I've heard many people wish their partners were, I was kind of hoping that personal attacks and assumptions wouldn't be made and instead support and advice would be given, thank you so much to the people who helped, Its really appreciated x

OP posts:
topdad1976 · 13/10/2011 18:13

Oh forgot to say, current contact I now have is every other weekend plus I see her about three times a week in addition, pick her up from nursery sometimes, I've moved 5 minutes away for that reason.

OP posts:
pinkytheshrinky · 13/10/2011 18:23

wow, looks like I've opened a hornets nest. Firstly I don't oppose nursery, looks like HerScaryness has a bit of a guilt complex for some reason, I don't disagree with nursery at all and I never said she was a bad mother, please stop looking for a fight because you feel you need to justify your own actions.

Yes until that point I thought poor bloke, now I think fuck off! HerScaryness was making a good point because of how you explained yourself. Read it back

If you had your daughter you too would put her in nursery as I assume you need to work too, so that was not relevant. If you want to stop her going then you will need to go to court - why don't you move there too and then everyone is happy

topdad1976 · 13/10/2011 23:04

Can't work in Switzerland so it looks like you will have to put up with this scumbag living in your country, please accept my sincerest apologies pinkytheshrinky, I will endeavour to be a better human being in the future so that hopefully one day I can be nearer to your opinion of what a worthy human being is. (by the way can work without putting her in nursery or take a few years out till she starts school)

OP posts:
Collaborate · 13/10/2011 23:29

The lawyers here aren't going to make personal attacks against you. Follow babybarrister's advice and see a solicitor on the reunite website.

Personally, I agree that if you were a SAHD she should never have removed the child from you. Perhaps you should be applying for at least a shared residence order (unless your daughter is already sharing her time between you both).

HerScaryness · 13/10/2011 23:41

Look, I have done SAHM, like you wouldn't ever begin to imagine. (unbelievable understatement!) I am Self employed now and work around my DS school hours. I believe I have the near perfect balance, I'm lucky, I know. I have no guilt complex at all! You couldn't be further wrong.

The reason I was angry with you is, to me, abundantly clear. you made a comment that your wife put her career before her child, and illustrated this by stating that she put her in full time day nursery - as if that is a bad thing to do.

It's not.

I may not have chose full time nursery for my DS, but I absolutely respect the right to do so. Daycare with other children, trained and focussed professionals providing good quality education and stimulation is a fantastic environment for a child to be in. Sets them up very well for the start of reception and teaches them to socialise better, integrate sooner and less likely to freak out when starting at 'big school'

For whatever reason your relationship failed. Not about to apportion blame on either side, but if she wasn't happy, your ExW has a right to end the relationship. She then is clearly responsible for her own living costs and has to find accommodation/employment etc that supports her.

You were/are not working (not sure of current status) so you were not going to be expected/able to sustain her in a new place. That would be impossible if you were not working and unreasonable if you were.

For your ExW to stay in a marriage just because of you, and the child you share, it'd be detrimental to everyone. You don't want to be living with someone that doesn't want to be with you FGS, it'd destroy you. Your child would be adversely affected too.

You CAN take legal steps to prevent her leaving the country, and I think that would be a fair expectation that you ought to investigate, but at the end of the day, if that would unreasonably adversely affect her life, then the court may say that she CAN go, subject to you having appropriate access.

You need to discuss this matter nicely with your ExW, to try to reach a reasonable compromise, and if that fails, then you try the legal route. The legal route though will not be pleasant, and your daughter will feel fall out. Either way.

You say you have a good relationship with your ExW. But you make snide little remarks about her, 'put her in FT nursery cos her career was more important' and 'is now trying to chase the big money in Switzerland'

You say she was headhunted for her current position. does it not occur to you that she is actually good at what she does? Hmm and that a move to the international market would mean that she gets bigger financial remuneration because she is worth it? Hmm

Sorry to say, but you come across as bitter and mean mouthed. Perhaps you have a bit of a right to be, but coming onto MUMSnet and attacking a woman's choice to be a working mum, a separated/single parent, you are going to have to realise that you are playing to a tough crowd.

incognitwooohooo · 13/10/2011 23:48

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QuintessentialShadyHallows · 13/10/2011 23:56

unless of course the mother has family in switzerland. Or she has an arsy ex she just wants to get away from. I can sort of see why just from a few posts here..... Hmm

incognitwooohooo · 14/10/2011 00:02

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QuintessentialShadyHallows · 14/10/2011 00:11

The order of that should be the other way around my dear, she did not flee the country then "make him a sahd". He was a sahd, then she left him. He moved after, and anybody who has dared disagree with him, has been given really shitty responses.

I will however not raise to the bait. Good night! Smile

incognitwooohooo · 14/10/2011 00:12

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youllbewaiting · 14/10/2011 07:49

'Sorry to say, but you come across as bitter and mean mouthed. Perhaps you have a bit of a right to be, but coming onto MUMSnet and attacking a woman's choice to be a working mum, a separated/single parent, you are going to have to realise that you are playing to a tough crowd.'

And there was me thinking this was a parenting website 'by parents for parents'

Of course you can call ex-husbands whatever you want, perfectly acceptable, I think 'twat' seems to be the favourite.

Your ex must be wonderful and you were probably abusive.

pinkytheshrinky · 14/10/2011 08:00

Can't work in Switzerland so it looks like you will have to put up with this scumbag living in your country, please accept my sincerest apologies pinkytheshrinky, I will endeavour to be a better human being in the future so that hopefully one day I can be nearer to your opinion of what a worthy human being is. (by the way can work without putting her in nursery or take a few years out till she starts school)

Passive aggressive, and you wonder why she wants to get away?

SoupDragon · 14/10/2011 08:06

FFS.

Imagine the OP had been female, a SAHM. Her XH leaves her, taking their child with him and putting the child in full time nursery. then, the XH outs forward the idea of him moving to sWitzerland with the child.

What would your responses have been then? Would you have accused the OP of being controlling and probably abusive? I rather suspect not.

incognitwooohooo · 14/10/2011 08:16

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