Advice on breaking a contact order!

[sammyh79]

I'm fairly new to mumsnet so I hope this is in the right place:

I currently live with my two sons, ages 11 and 1 and my partner who is father to the youngest. My oldest son has contact with his dad during the holidays after a contact order was made.

Prior to going to court, and before my youngest was born, I moved away from my home town which was where my ex lived also. He was not happy about this, however I felt it the right thing to do as he was constantly letting my son down and breaking arrangements to see him and we would have a better life where we now live. He has NEVER paid maintenence or paid for anything my son needed, and I have not made it an issue in the past as it was more important for him to have contact with my son then pay me money.

The contact order was made last year and stated that my son would see his dad every half term for the week, half of all the other holidays and for a weekend inbetween the terms and half terms, so every 3-4 weeks.

Recently I had stopped the weekend visits as my son complained that he didnt spend much time with his dad whilst there, and that he didnt want to keep missing his weekend activities at home to go there. To compensate my ex, I gave him an extra week in the summer, and one at easter, meaning he now has him for the majority of the holidays. I have 2 weeks at summer and 1 at xmas and thats it.

My ex was not happy with this, but I think was advised that it would be pointless taking me to court as I had justified reasons to stop the weekend access.
However, since this my ex has been playing underhand games, and trying to undermine me at every chance. When my son asked him recently why I told him off all the time (he is pushing his boundaries at the moment), the response from his dad was to say that THEY get on better. This might seem silly, but all the time he is saying things to my son to make him feel a third wheel in the family we have down here. Knowing that my son feels a bit jealous of his new brother he uses every opportunity to snipe about me and undermine me and the relationship he has with his brother.
He recently decided to tell my son that we considered having an abortion with him ( a thing that he tried to make me do) and that I probably want my younger son more. I am also concerned about the amount of time my son spends in other peoples care when he should be with his dad. My son always moans that he doesnt want to go cos he doesnt want to be left with his dads mum, or friend. When my son asks if he can visit my mum instead his dad informs him that the time he spends there is HIS time so I have to arrange for him to spend time with MY family outside of this, even though my mum lives 5 minutes away and he's going to work anyways.

He also refuses to pay support even though he is now working (though I am not sure if he is self-employed or claiming benefits and working cash in hand). He refuses to help with activities my son does and school trips, yet expects me to help pay for summer activities while my son is up there, knowing that if my son asks I wont say no as I dont want him to miss out!! I think it would be hard for me to get awarded any money without him offering as I cant prove what he earns. He is also refusing to pay me back £1000 that he owes me for a car.

This might seem petty to some people but I am fed up with it all, and I feel like I want to go back to court to get these issues resolved, before I lose my son altogether. I cant afford a solicitor and represented myself last time due to earnings, yet he gets legal aid! So my only option is to make him want to take me back to court so I can represent myself again. I dont mind this but I would like to know if there is anything the courts can do. I want him to have contact with my son, but I dont want him to be telling him things that are not age appropriate, or that undermine my parenting. I would also like for him to finally start paying something for his son, even if its only £5 a week to help with his activities.

Can anyone offer me advice on what I can do, I've run out of ideas.

Thanks in advance

it is bad form to combine contact with maintenence,so separate the two....court is NOT for mantenence issues,you go to the csa!

that said,you say it has always been more important for contact with dad than the money.....so why did the dad have to take you to court in the first place for contact??

its also,as dad says,HIS time with his son....wether he leaves him with someone else for some of that or not,its his call.

oh,and i'm not a solicitor btw,

are there any welfare issues??

I am not trying to combine the two issues, I dont know where I would go to sort the money issue, which is not by the way the most important thing, but surely is relevant when he doing all he can to undermine me, which in turn is affecting his son.
Yes it is his time with his son, but doesnt it seem petty that he wont let my son go to see his nan, like he asks when he isnt spending the time with him anyways, we are only talking about a few hours after all, while he is at work. And given that my son is ASKING himself shouldnt it be considered? How old does he have to be before he can choose who to visit when he is up there?

The ex took me to court firstly not for contact but for a prohibited steps order to prevent me from moving, when that was refused the courts looked at putting a contact order in place. I have never contested contact, in fact I've always pushed for him to have contact, he was the one who always broke the arrangements. In fact, he sees him more regularly now that we have moved then when he lived round the corner!!

There are no welfare issues in terms of violence or neglect. However, I am concerned as to the mental games that he is playing with my son, and also the conversations which are definately age appropriate! Why does an 11 year old need to know he wasnt planned, or that abortion was considered??
I want to stop my ex from saying things like this to him!

i dont know how you can stop him saying these things,i guess you cant! you just have to calmly explain to your son that his dad is wrong. and give him the truth. kids are good at growing up andd remembering all this stuff. he's 11,so will be sooner rather than later. maybe someone else can help with that? anyone?

CSA for maintenence money...call them

gran is his mum or yours? thing is,kids really dont always get to 'pick and choose' in life. going to his dads doesnt have to be one long holiday doing things/going out......normal tme at home doing nothing is just as good.

I completely agree. When my son moans that he and his dad havent done anything I remind him that playing footie is quality time. I do try to be supportive to my ex, though I dont get the same treatment.
When he is at work he leaves my son with his mum, or a friend who loves with them (ex lives with his mum) but my son moans cos he spends a lot of time in their care. My mum only lives 5 mins away and has a lot of sons cousins visiting especially in the holidays so he would like to be able to visit them too, as they are his age-ish and less boring to be around then gran's. My ex only says no cos he would rather die that do something nice for me and my family, even though its what his son wants.
The reason I thought of involving the courts if for a Cafcass visit as I want my son to be heard, and to make sure he is happy when he goes there. I dont like forcing him to go, and I hate when he calls me and sounds so unhappy.
I'm also concerned about the emotional blackmail that my ex uses, and would hope that Cafcass can help to prevent some of this, or at least have some influence?
As for CSA, I really dont know if he is working as self-employed or illegally, so I dont know how they could help. He would only hide his earnings anyway to prevent paying a thing. Apparently its my punishment for moving away!!

I'm not a sol either, so feel free to ignore/wait for wiser advice etc...

I'd say that you are asking the courts to do the impossible - they can't stop your ex having conversations with your son that you consider innappropriate any more than they can stop you saying things he considers innappropriate. Unless, that is, they stop contact altogether, which is not likely. You say your son is unhappy there - but it sounds like they can talk to each other and you need to be pretty certain he isn't just saying what you want to hear.

I have to say just from what you've posted that you do sound hostile to contact - you moved away, you have stopped court ordered contact at weekends, you don't like him being looked after by his granny, you want him with your family etc etc. I understand you have offered alternatives, but if those alternatives are in holiday time when Dad is working rather than weekends when he isn't, then you can't complain that he has to use family members as childcare, like millions of other parents do!

I'm also a bit about the assumption that your ex will take your son to visit your Mum...I'd consider that a bloody cheek a bit bizarre, TBH. It is his time (and that of his wider family). Couldn't you take your son there to visit yourself, in the many weekends you now have together? And if you did, would you then feel it would be reasonable if your ex said - ooh, while you're visiting, I can take son to football? (or whatever).

no advice but bumping for you

Why can't you take your son to your mothers when he is with you? What the dad does with his time with his son is not for you to dictate. The lad will get to an age where he will go see your mother if he wants anyway soon enough.

CAFCASS cant do anything about what your ex says to your DS.
all ex has to say is "oh sorri i wont do it again" and he can then do what he likes...
only possible way forward might be some kind of family mediation?
parenting apart classes?

so you both agree to addresss issues ?

Child maintenance should be arranged through the CSA. You don't have to prove how much he earns. They have the powers to get information from his employer and, if necessary, from HMRC. Note that your ex may be able to get maintenance reduced to take account of the costs of contact since you are the one who moved away.

As others have said, what he does with your son whilst he is in his care is entirely up to him. He has no say in what you do with your son. You have no say in what he does with your son. He can make whatever arrangements he wants within reason. And since you have unilaterally decided to breach the court order by stopping weekend contact and giving a week extra in holiday time it is not surprising that your ex is leaving your son with other members of his family while he works.

You can't control what your ex says to your son any more than he can control what you say to your him.

Bluntly, I think you are being completely unreasonable in expecting your ex to take your son to see your mother. You say you only have your son for 2 weeks in the summer and 1 week at Christmas. That isn't true. You have your son most weekends and every day during term time. You have plenty of time to take him to see your mother yourself. I agree completely with your ex on this. The time is for your son to have contact with his father (your ex) and his father's family. You should be arranging contact with your mother while you have your son. And if I were your mother I would be less than totally pleased that you were getting your ex to bring your son round rather than bring him yourself.

I have no idea why you want him to take you to court so that you can represent yourself. You can take him to court yourself. You don't need a solicitor for that. However, the courts won't get involved in maintenance. That isn't their problem. That is down to the CSA. The courts are highly unlikely to make an order telling your ex what he can and can't say to your son. They are also highly unlikely to make an order telling your ex he cannot leave your son in the care of members of his family and they certainly won't make an order telling your ex he must take your son to see his mother. Given that you have chosen to breach the contact order a return to court may not be the best move for you. The fact that you have breached the existing contact order will be a factor in their considerations when deciding what new orders to make, if any.

Just to add that the courts like to see parents working together, or at least trying to do so. I would agree with cestlavielife that mediation would be a good way forward.

I didnt come on here to defend myself but here goes. When my son was first born I didnt live near his dad. I moved back to my hometown so my son could be nearer his dad, but his dad wasnt making an effort, until the recent court order he had only ever had him to stay over for a night ONCE in ten years, not beacuase I didnt allow it, but because he was too busy with his own life to care. I had always felt happier living elsewhere so when my son beacame upset with his dad constantly letting him down I decided to move away again, back to where I was before. When an 8 year old asks you not to make a 'daddy promise' its very upsetting.
I have always worked and been a single mum, he has never contributed financially, yet I have always tried to maintain contact for my sons sake, personally I know what its like to have a parent avoid you so as not to avoid money issues.
My reasons for moving away were to provide more financial security and better prospects. My son was the one who asked me to stop the weekend access, and I gave in after many upsetting journeys to meet halfway on the drops. There is 200 mile between me and the ex, and some might say that this is my fault, but when an ex is showing little consideration for their childs feelings why should I consider his?
I was hoping to try and remain amicable with my ex, but how can I when he is causing emotional upset and confusion to my son? I think its terrible that his dad should be allowed to mess with his head like this, and not have any consequences.
Obviously, as my son now he has a little brother to share his home with, there have been a few minor jealousy issues, which would be resolved easier if my ex was supportive instead of trying to make it worse. As my son is 11, does anyone know when his feelings are taken into consideration? He does get on with his dad, but isnt keen to spend so much time with him. And as for my ex's mum, I dont mind my son being around her at all, she is a good woman, its my son thats asks to spend time with my mum, he moans that he is bored being there too much, and I dont understand what the problem is, his dad is not there anyway. I do take my son to see my family, whenever In go to visit, and I usually allow his dad to have extra contact seeing as I'm local.
I would really like to go to mediation again, but my ex refuses. All he is interested in doing is creating animosity and stress, and trying to turn my son against me!! How can anyone think that this is a healthy situation for my son to be in, so surely CafCass would have a case to review?

No. Cafcass ate over run with proper welfare issues. Drug users, alcoholics etc

Alfo you say why should you consider your ex when you moved away...... It's not about you or him, it's yours Childs right, as per the childrens act, to have acrelationsjio with BOTH parents, warts and all. You have no rights ( or reason from what you say) to block contact

You've stopped weekends which were court ordered..... You could get serious punishment for this.

phr47 just to clarify: I dont live anywhere near my mum or my ex any more. there is 200 miles between us. Contact is made via both of us. We meet halfway and share the costs. In fact, when I do have time I drive all the way myself and he pays half my petrol, which is cheaper than his petrol, should he meet me halfway.
I do not expect him to take my son to my mums for me, I do take him when I go (which is about twice a year) however when he is at his dads, my son has asked to be allowed to visit my mum for a few hours while his dad is at work. He has no employer and works when he wants, I'm not even sure its a legit job, hence my uncertainty of being awarded anything! And we didnt move away for no reason, the only reason I moved back to my hometown in the first place was to improve my sons contact with his dad, I met his dad when I lived where I move back to when he let my son down too many times, so how am I the bad guy in all this?

I do think there is scope for cafcass to do at least a wishes and feelings report.

Apologies if I was too harsh last night. I wasn't trying to make out that you are the bad guy. I was attempting to be realistic about what the outcome might be if this goes back to court. And my apologies - your earlier posts came across, to me at least, as expecting your ex to take your son to see your mother. It would be nice if he complied with your son's wish to visit his mother while he is at work but I doubt the courts would want to order that. However, your ex needs to be aware that your son may end up deciding that he doesn't want to see him any more if he is unhappy about what happens when he is there.

If your ex is working in the black economy you may find it hard to get a proper amount through the CSA. If they come in with a low assessment you can apply for a variation on the basis that his lifestyle does not match his declared income.

It is a shame that your ex refuses mediation. However, that puts you in a slightly stronger position if you do end up going back to court.

And I should have said that the fact your son is 11 means that his views carry some weight in all of this. His views are not decisive yet but the older he gets the more influential his views will become. So I agree with Collaborate that a wishes and feelings report from CAFCASS may be a good next step. That allows your son to share his feelings with the court.

Thanks for apologizing, though I guess I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to my son. I've always tried to do what was best for him, hence moving nearer to his dad in the first place. When it was clear that the ex just wasnt bothered about being responsible and reliable for my son, and I was offered a better job in my old area I moved back away. I do understand that his time with his dad is not for me to have an influence over, all I ever want is for my son to enjoy the time that he spends up there. He is always asking to be able to visit his nan while his dad is at work, would a wishes and feelings report take this into account? My son is very outspoken about what he wants and doesnt want, and on a few occasions I've had to persuade him to go to see his dad. I guess after being let down so many times he's not as enamored with his dad as he should be.
Does anyone know what age my son is able to choose when and for how long he has contact with his dad? I must admit I am worried that my ex is trying to twist things in my son's head and play to my son's jealousies of his brother so that when he is old enough he will go and live with him. None of this would be out of love for my son, rather out of spite to me. He was a very controlling man, and always expected to get his own way, on numerous occasions he has mentioned that he cant wait to get one over on me. Its all very bitter and petty.
I always knew it would be hard to get any money from him for support and thats why I've never gone down that route, it would only inflame a bad situation, and I've always been able to manage with my income. It would be nice though, as it would help with the costs of petrol of meeting halfway for contact, this is the biggest expenditure I have at the moment.

I think going to court could be a bad move for you. Firstly, you admit that you have changed the court ordered contact - that contact was obviously put in place for a reason, often where the court feels the parents would be unable to agree between them. It is worng for you to just change it like that and I think the courts would not be too pleased about it. You say it's what your son wants, but if your son told your ex "I don't want to go home" after contact, would you accept it if he just refused to bring him back?

Secondly, your post comes across as very hyprocritical. On the one hand, you think that because your son says he wants to spend time with your Mum, your ex should let him but in the next sentence you say that when he has jealousy issues with your youngest he should support you......I actually think that you should both be supporting one another and would rather like to bang your heads together.

Your ex is your sons Dad and has just as much right to make decisions when he has care of him as you do when you have him. He may be bored at Dad's sometimes and he may want to go to his Nan's but at 11 he cannot always get his own way. My kids get bored sometimes. My sk's always complain about going to childminders when their Mum is at work but it is something they have to deal with.

I'm sorry to say it but you and your ex need to remember what is important here. You both seem to take pleasure in your son being bored/unhappy at the others house. Sorry to sound harsh but you need to start sending the message to your son that Daddy makes the rules at his and if Daddy says he goes to paternal Nan or friend then that's how it is and he needs to be more supportive of your son adapting to a new sibling when he is with you.

I get the distinct impression that your son is telling you exactly what he thinks you want to hear and is doing the same with your ex, telling him how unhappy he is with having a new sibling etc.

If it went to court I wouldn't be at all surprised if this isn't what came out in the cafcass report as well.

Maybe mediation is the way forward bt you BOTH need to stop undermining one another and trying to have the upper hand.

I know this is not what you will want to hear but that's my opinion.

this may help www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/family/ending_a_relationship_when_you_re_living_together.htm#children_at_the_end_of_your_relationship

or here www.advicenow.org.uk/advicenow-guides/family/parents-apart/