Advice - contact order

[lubbadubb]

My ex obtained a contact order 4 years ago which I have complied with even though he has subsequently admitted he got it for his mother. During this time he was hardly there on the order days. The order stated that contact could only take place at his mothers house due to his previous history. Around Oct last year I received a telephone call in the early hours of the morning from my distressted child asking me to come to her daddys to pick her up as he and his girlfriend were drunk and being sick. I did not have his address. When he brought my child back the next day I said that he had broken the contact order by taking her to another address and also the immense distress he had caused my child. Following this my child would get really emotional and say that she did not want to see him. I am now being taken back to court for breach of the order. I am really worried as I was acting in the best interest of my child and trying to safeguard. I am not entitled to Legal Aid and cannot afford a solicitor. Again he has said that his mother misses my child and that is the reason he is taking me back to court. I have no problems about my child having contact with the grandmother but am so scared that he will compromise my childs safety. Please any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am representing myself next week.

on what grounds is he taking you back to court? have you stopped contact? surely if he saw solicitor they would advise him there is not much he can do if you are abiding by the terms of the Order or is he seeking to vary it to allow child to go to his? if grandmother wants contact she can make an application in her own right. why has she not done this? there will probably be a cafcass officer at court who will speak to both of you before court and you will be able to let her know your concerns. have you been to see a solicitor to see if you are eligible for legal aid or to get 1/2 hour free appt (some do this so check in your area)

so you said she 'didnt want to go' and that was in oct.....there has been no further contact/communications/negotiating between then and now??

how old is the child?

So we have a situation where the grandmother wants to have contact with the child and you have no problems with that and yet you are being taken to court. Does your daughter want to see her grandmother? Can you talk to your ex and his mother to sort out a compromise that is acceptable to everyone? That would be much better than going back to court.

The age of your child is an important consideration. The older she is the more weight her views will carry.

He is taking me back to court for contravention of the contact order in that my child who is 7 said that she did not want to see him and became really distressed. I did speak with a solicitor who said that I was not entitled and another who said that to accompany me would cost £700 for the day and said that the court could rule that I am in contempt. I only had my childs interests at heart as hearing her in the early hours pleading for me to come and get her and me not knowing where she was was extremely heartbreaking. On hindsight I should have myself at that time taken him back to court has he had broken the court order by taking her away from the stated address in the order. I have found out that he is getting legal aid because he is on JSA but working as self employed, not living at the address where he is claiming the benefits (his mothers)and living with a girlfriend who on the night my child rang me I could hear in the background threatening to snap my childs phone in half if she didn't hand it over. I am afraid that I an unable to have a reasonable conversation with my ex due to his violent and threatening nature.

SO he breaks the conditions , your rightfully heartbroken at listening to some woman threatening things to your flesh and blood but your likely to get punished? THIS COUNTRY IS A JOKE!

I feel out on a limb, I am going to self represent and make the court aware of the situation which provoked my actions to stop his contact. I have also found out this week that he has lied to the CSA stating he has got joint custody so as not to pay any support to our child. I am dealing with a man who consistently lies, manipulates and knows his way around the system, but the court never takes this things into account.

"I am dealing with a man who consistently lies, manipulates and knows his way around the system, but the court never takes this things into account."

And there lies the problem in the british legal system.

I have also been told that I may have to pay him compensation and pay a contribution towards his legal fees, whilst I have been the only one who has supported our child since she was born as he has never been forthcoming with support but has managed to take several holidays a year. He has even stated that he believes our child has ADHD, this is because he has never put in any time and does not know how to parent. My child will sit down and do a 500 piece puzzle from start to finish, ADHD no. Before I stopped the contact he would pick up drop our child at his mothers go out an return the next day to bring her home. Some weekends he got another family member to pick my child up and spent no time at all with our child.

This bloke gives fathers a bad name. This is when a manual approach to individual cases would make sense. Instead we are just lumbered with the out of date , one rule for everything approach

What a horrendous experience that must have been, OP, hearing your child asking you to get her and not knowing where she was.

It is easy to criticise the justice system (and I agree, there are many, many things wrong with it) but the real problem lies with using a system that is so expensive, designed for criminals, and so conflict based to deal with family matters. This damages mothers and fathers (and of course children).

But bottom line, once a court order is in place, you can't just stop contact as if it did not exist. You could file (and if you had been able to get affordable advice at the time, might already have done so) for a variation, based on the events of that night and your DD's distress.

Can you discuss the problem with the MIL? (I'd have rung her that night, I think, but I am a cow)

You may have to accept that due to your shock and fear, you may have made a mistake in preventing contact with a significant adult in the child's life (if I have understood correctly that you have stopped all contact) but don't let that stop you insisting that safeguards be put in place to ensure that this contact is supervised by his mother and your daughter is where she is meant to be. (Perhaps an evening phonecall?)

I am extremely worried about this and don't know what to expect. I know that I will be told to abide by the original court order, which I don't have a problem with if my child remains at his mothers, but do you think the court will make a stipulation to him that he has to abide by this. I just wish the courts would listen to children on an individual basis and not make generalised rulings taken from legislative guidance. My child is able to express her feelings but is not given the opportunity of doing so. I have been advised that my child wont really have a voice until at least 14. I am not a woman scorned as I have moved on from my life with him, just an extremely anxious parent who is penalised for wanting to protect.

Unfortunately I am unable to speak to the MIL as she condones all her sons actions and is probably the one behind him taking this back to court as he previously admitted that she is the one he is doing this for. She was aware of the conditions of the contact order that my child had to remain at her address for the duration of the stay but did not stop him from taking her to his main residence.

you can put forward "reasonable excuse" for breaking the court order -

www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/children/child_adopt_act.htm

"Breaching orders
Where a contact order has been breached, there are provisions in the Act to enforce contact orders, enabling the court, on application, to impose an unpaid work requirement (an enforcement order) on the person who breaches a contact order without a reasonable excuse. This gives the courts greater flexibility in dealing with breaches of contact orders, and is in addition to the existing powers to treat the breach of the order as a contempt of court. Courts will be able to take action in respect of a breach of an enforcement order by making that order more onerous or by making a further enforcement order.

"

if the court order says contact at his mother's then you cana slo putforward he was in breach.

he would also have to give "reasonable excuse".

www.ccinform.co.uk/Articles/2011/01/10/5600/Section%C2%A011J+of+the+Children+Act+1989+-+Enforcement+orders.html?Keywords=&SubQueryKeywords=&CategoryName=Legislation&Topics=16222
"The court may not make an enforcement order if it is satisfied that the person in breach of the contact order had a reasonable excuse for breaching the order. The burden of proving that there was a reasonable excuse for breach falls upon the person who claims to have had a reasonable excuse, and the standard of proof is the balance of probabilities.
"

i am sure the barristers/lawyers on here will correct me if i misinterpreting but i think this is key here - can you show you had reasonable excuse?
do you have evidence?
eg evidence he took her to the other house?

you have to be very careful here i think - eg if DD is distressed make a point of taking her to GP /telling a teacher/ have a witness somehow even if day after the event. so there is a record.

-did you tell anyone else in october about this?

Onlyhereonce - We do NOT have a one rule for everything approach in this country. Every case is looked at individually to determine what is in the child's best interests. And the fact the OP is being taken to court does not mean she is likely to be punished.

Lubbadubb - Whilst your child's views will count for something, at 7 her views will not be decisive. When there is a contact order in place you are expected to make her available for contact regardless of whether or not she wants to go, I'm afraid.

Do you have evidence of his breach of the order? If so you should definitely present that to the court. The order is binding on him as well. He should not be trying to get the courts to force you to comply with the order if he is not willing to comply with it himself.

"He should not be trying to get the courts to force you to comply with the order if he is not willing to comply with it himself."
Spot on. You don't need independent 3rd party evidence, though if you have some that's good. Just say it how you see it.

Thank you all for your support and advice, the only witness is my 7 year old. I am planning to humbly appeal to the court that it was due to him breaching the contact order in the first place.

Do you think it will be okay to represent myself or am I in a situation where I should have a legal representative.

Only you can decide what value you place on representation as opposed to doing it yourself.

Try contacting cafcass and explain your situation. Ask if someone will be carying out a risk assessment on him. Ask if someone will meet with your child so your 7 year old can have their views represented 'independently'.

Have you heard of the Children's Legal Centre? Not sure how to post links but if you google it you will find there is a free helpline and they can advise you. They work on the child's behalf - rather than you, the parent, and I think, therefore, there's no cost.

A risk assessment will always be carried out before the first court appointment. This is a check of the police and social services.