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Legal matters

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After advice from anyone knowledgeable in property law - sorry, it's very long.

21 replies

Dumbledoresgirl · 05/02/2011 20:58

I am sorry for the length of this, but the situation takes some explaining.

The main drain from our house keeps blocking up, currently about once every 3-4 months. Raw sewage fills all the inspection pits on our property, sometimes sewage has leaked out, and at least one of our loos fails to flush properly when the back up has got really bad.

We have had the drain cleared each time, of course, and last summer, having spent a long time on home renovations and an extension, finally had the drain surveyed to find out what was causing the repeated blockages. It turns out, just as our drain meets the public sewer, but, and this is critical, still at the point that it is our responsibility and not the water board's, there are tree roots growing through a join in the clay pipe. Obviously, as the roots grow, the drain will block more frequently.

Now, here's the problem: the point at which our drain meets the public sewer is actually under our neighbour's drive. Last summer, we informed him of the situation and sought his go ahead to get the problem fixed. We are talking about one, possibly 2 days' work. The drainage company would have to dig down from our neighbour's drive, locate the drain, and put a plastic sheath around the clay pipe which tree roots would be unable to penetrate. They would then back fill the hole and tarmac over the spot, meaning our neighbour will have a tarmac patch on his existing tarmac drive.

We appreciate this will not look that pretty, but having had our own tarmac drive dug up recently to have a gas supply fitted, I know that the patch effect soon becomes unnoticable. We also appreciate that there will be some inconvenience to our neighbours, in that their drive may be out of action for a day or two. We would be quite happy to allow them to park on our drive if that was an issue for them.

But, the neighbour has refused point blank to allow us to do the work. Initially, he stalled by saying he thought the quote we had had for the work was too cheap and therefore a good enough job would not be done. He also said the responsibility for the job lay with the water board.

Obligingly, we got the water board out hoping they would say it was indeed their responsibility as they then have the right to do the work with or without the neighbour's permission. They even told us they would do it there and then if it proved to be their responsibility. Unfortunately, we were right and the neighbour was wrong: it was not the water board's responsibility as the tree roots are coming through our drain just before the main sewer.

Thinking then that the neighbour had objected to us choosing a cheap quote, we decided to ask our home insurers if the job was covered by our policy, and thus get the job done by a more expensive contractor. Our insurers told us the job was covered by our policy, but when they tried to get permission from the neighbour to go ahead with the work, he again refused point blank.

Our insurers then suggested we tried Environmental Health at our local council. Apparently, in certain situations, they too can insist the work is done and can override any objections the neighbour has. Unfortunately, in our case, they said they couldn't act because it wasn't an environmental health issue. Well, I don't know about that: having raw sewage backing up your drains and sometimes leaking out of the inspection pit, and being unable to flush a loo because of the backlog might be considered a threat to our environmental health. But anyway...

Environmental Health also contacted the neighbour who then started playing silly games. He told them he was perfectly willing for the work to go ahead but he needed 24 hour access up his drive as a disabled person used his drive, and when the work was finished, instead of a tarmac patch covering the hole dug, he wanted the whole drive re-tarmaced. Re the disabled person: there is no disabled person living in his house. It is him, his wife and daughter. None of them are disabled. He is friendly with another of his neighbours who, according to my dh, is slow on his feet although I have never noticed this. Their gardens are linked by a little gate, but if this is the disabled person he is referring to, his house is actually on another road and he has perfect access to his house from his road ? no need to use our neighbour's drive at all. As for re-tarmacing his whole drive! If I explain that our neighbour's house was originally built as a granny annexe to our house back in the 1930s, and is located at what would have been the bottom of our very large garden and his drive runs all the way up the length of our property....I don't know, we could be talking 100 feet or more....there is no way it would be acceptable to our insurers or financially possible for us to tarmac the whole length for the sake of a patch I guess will be 2 feet square at most. So it is clear that despite telling the council he is willing for us to do the work, he is actually not at all willing and has done nothing but put obstacle after obstacle in our way.

So this is the question I want to ask (finally!) what rights do we have? Surely we must have some right to drainage from our property? We need to find the body who will force our neighbour to allow us to do the work we need to do. We know the water board can force him and Environmental Health can force him but neither body will do so. Is there anyone else who will act for us so we can fix this problem? Or what is the position legally with getting work done on ones property when it involves a neighbour's property too?

Please help if you have knowledge of property law or have been in this sort of situation yourself. Dh and I are desperate to know how to proceed.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 05/02/2011 21:22

First thing is to check the deeds of your neighbour's property. You may find that you have the right to go onto your neighbour's drive to make the repair.

If there is nothing in the deeds, you can apply to the courts under the Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992 for an order allowing you to go onto your neighbour's drive to make the repairs.

Dumbledoresgirl · 05/02/2011 21:25

Thank you. I thought of the deeds. I have a file of deeds going back to the nineteenth century, and think one of the documents refers to the parcelling off of the land to make the granny annexe. Would that be the deed in question?

How do I go about applying to the court for access? Do I need a solicitor?

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 06/02/2011 00:16

Without looking at the deeds in question I really couldn't say but it could be. You could try enquiring at the Land Registry to see what information they hold.

You should be able to get an access order yourself without needing a solicitor. You apply at your local county court. The staff there can't give you any legal advice but they will help you with the process. To get an order you will need to show that the work is reasonably necessary in order to repair the drain and that the work cannot be carried out, or would be much harder to carry out, if you had to do it from your own land.

Dumbledoresgirl · 06/02/2011 10:54

Thanks. I have ordered our deeds online from the Land Registry as I couldn't find anything that seemed to help our case in the historical documents I hold.

A court order seems an extreme reaction though we seem to qualify. Sad

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 06/02/2011 12:55

It might be an idea to order your neighbour's deeds as well.

If there is no other way to get the drains fixed you will have to go for a court order. However, you might want to get a solicitor to fire a shot across your neighbour's bows first. That shouldn't cost much and doesn't commit you to using that solicitor if you have to go to court. Alternatively you could write to your neighbour yourself stating clearly why you need to dig up their drive, saying that you would like to co-operate with them to ensure the work is done with the minimum of disruption but also saying that if they refuse to grant access within, say, 3 weeks you will apply to the courts for an Access Order.

GreenAmy · 06/02/2011 14:47

You have the right to go on your neighbours property to do this work, you need to give them notice, I will look up the procedure in the next day or two

You can also get the council to enforce the right to fix drains on other peoples land

However who owns the tree? I suggest the person who owns the tree has the responsibility to fix the problem, surprised your insurer has not said this.

Dumbledoresgirl · 06/02/2011 17:57

I am not keen on letting our neighbour know we mght go for a court order. He has proved himself to be a devious man who clearly knows the system better than we do and is happy to play it. If he knew we were applying for a court order (and we will only go that route as a last resort obviously) is there anything he could do to block the procedure?

GreenAmy, the council didn't seem to want to get involved although the Environmental Health department did approach the neighbour but got nowhere. Is there another department of the council we could try?

The trees are ours.

OP posts:
sneezecakesmum · 06/02/2011 19:34

Does your local council have a legal department who could point you in the right direction?
I though people had a legal right to go onto a neighbours property to do essential work. Via the civil courts though!

GreenAmy · 06/02/2011 19:52

If I remember it is Environmental Health department, I will look it up later. Wait until the sewage is backing up again and contact them then.

However is your house older then then 1937, if it is the sewer is the responsibility of the water board, I am sure this is the case, I will look this up later too.

If it is your trees why do you not just cut the offending routes?

hugglymugly · 06/02/2011 20:05

I've a couple of thoughts that you've probably already considered, but I thought I'd mention them anyway:

Are you absolutely sure this isn't a Section 24 sewer? The deeds won't help with that except to prove that both houses were built before 1937. This is a link to Southern Water's website: www.southernwater.co.uk/DomesticCustomers/whoOwnsTheSewers/ - click on the "After transfer" button for more information.

Could the work be done from the access point in the road and internal to the sewer, e.g. the roots cut off and an inner sleeve inserted? Is it worth having another word with the firm who did the survey to get their opinion?

GreenAmy · 06/02/2011 20:26

here's the problem: the point at which our drain meets the public sewer

I would go back to the utility company and argue that because it is at the point that meets the main sewer pipe it is their responsibility.

If they cut the routes and it starts leaking under his drive he will soon come round

prh47bridge · 06/02/2011 21:33

You do indeed have the right to go onto a neighbours property to do essential work but, if they won't agree voluntarily, you have to get an Access Order to do so.

Even with a house built before 1st October 1937, the drain is only a public sewer if it serves two or more houses. Even then it is private up to the point where the drainage from another house connects to it. It doesn't sound like any other house is being affected by the problem so I would say this is almost certainly a private drain and the OP is responsible for repairing it.

I'm afraid you can't get an access order without letting your neighbours know what you are doing. They are entitled to go to court and argue against the order being awarded. In order to succeed they would have to show that they would suffer hardship or interference with their use of the land to such a degree that it would be unreasonable to make the order. In this situation I doubt they would succeed unless they could show a way that the drain could be repaired at a reasonable cost without digging up their drive.

prh47bridge · 06/02/2011 21:35

And GreenAmy, it only becomes the utility company's responsibility if it is on their side of the join. From the information posted I presume it is the drain that has been damaged just as it enters the sewer. If that is the case it is definitely not the utility company's problem.

Dumbledoresgirl · 06/02/2011 22:03

GreenAmy , Environmental health werent able to help us.

Our house is older than 1937 (is 18th century) but the neighbour's house was built in 1938 I think. The sewer and our drain predate 1937 though obviously.

We can't cut the tree roots as they are 6 feet under ground - possibly deeper as the ground rises as it goes away from our house.

Hugglymugly, we asked the drainage company sent out by the insurers if they could insert a plastic sleeve, but he said not. But that is one option we are going to pursue as obviously one man's opinion might have been wrong.

Stop Press: My dh has just looked up our local water board (following huggly's link) and found something that said that from October 2011 water boards would take over responsibility of drains once they leave a property's boundaries. In which case, if we wait until October, they will do the work for us. But this was a draft regulation from 2008 and of course, since then we have had a change of government and cuts are taking place left right and centre. Does anyone know if this regulation is going to be implemented? If none of you do, maybe we need to ring our water board tomorrow to ask?

OP posts:
GreenAmy · 07/02/2011 00:10

prh47bridge seems far more knowledgeable then I am, although we had a similar problem with one of our rental properties when a neighbour built a conservatory where our drain pipe was broken.

I need to find the paperwork to find out how it was resolved.

I think EH would get involved if you let the sewer flood.

Can you not get a mini digger? Might be a stupid question.

POst a question on the Garden Law Forum, the people on there might have better advice

sneezecakesmum · 07/02/2011 12:02

cutting the roots feeding the tree is not going to solve the problem, just prevent further damage. The roots have grown through the pipes, breaking them and blocking drainage. There was a TV program with sarah beaney about just such a problem with roots - the damage was extensive and it seems the only way to fix the pipe is to replace it and dig out all the roots.

GreenAmy · 07/02/2011 12:52

Just a thought!

Logic would be the roots would die and start leaking under the neighbours drive so he woould have to come round.

However it might not be such a good idea

Dumbledoresgirl · 07/02/2011 13:37

It's a nice idea GreenAmy, but the roots are already through the pipe and this is what is causing the problem. Even if they weren't, we can't get to the roots as both they, and the drain, are under the neighbour's drive - hence the whole problem.

We can't even cut down the tree (again, if the roots had not penetrated the pipe) because we don't know which tree it is! (think of a hedgerow with several trees in it as the boundary between us and the neighbours).

But I love the idea of anything happening to inconvenience the neighbour Smile

OP posts:
sneezecakesmum · 08/02/2011 10:46

Hi Dumble - Does anyone have any knowledge regarding your tree roots damaging your neighbours property. ?? Would you or your insurance co be liable for any damage. This TV programme also showed the drying out effect of the ground around foundations causing significant subsidence! I think it said the roots of some trees are 3 times the size of the canopy. If your roots broke their pipes I think you would be liable to those repairs too!

Why dont you negotiate with the neighbours offering to check the condition of their pipes at the same time as they may have a similar problem waiting to happen? Surely their outpipe is also joining the mains in the same area? Big trees are lovely, but sadly not near houses!

Dumbledoresgirl · 08/02/2011 10:53

OMG, I have turned cold at the thought that we might be liable for damage to our neighbour's property. The man is so horrid, he would sue us as soon as look at us!

But, fortunately, no, there is no danger of this. It is hard to explain, but he is not next door to us as in the next house up the road. His house was built at the bottom of our (big) back garden so his house is actually nowhere near us or this drain, or even his drive! His drive goes all the way up the side of our property and the hedge and trees are on the boundary. They aren't huge trees either - I am not good on trees, but think cherry tree size, maybe 20 feet tall max?

Under his driveway, running the length of it, is the main sewer and our drain drops into the sewer as it goes past our house. Sorry, hard to explain without a diagram, but the upshot is, the trees aren't that big (though obviously big enough to have roots into our drain) and the only bit of property that belongs to the dreaded neighbour within reach is literally just his precious tarmac drive. I don't think a medium sized tree could cause drying out to the ground causing his drive to sink could it?

OP posts:
sneezecakesmum · 08/02/2011 20:27

No its only BIG trees that dry out foundations of the house because ground needs to be kept reasonably moist, eg clay (lots of clay in London!) so you are safe Grin
Our ex neighbour used to be from hell too - threw tantrums every time we parked ouside his house - it was a corner plot so 3 cars could have parked there and not blocked his access. He parked in his drive anyway! If we did for any reason he would rip our plants up and let down our tyres!! So...sneaky camera pointing on our boundary fence caught the old b standing on his bench and leaning over and ripping handfulls of our clematis out on our side of the fence. Quick trip to police and done for criminal damage.Grin This after years of aggro from him and total loss of patience from us!

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