Tenant is contesting part-withheld deposit

[Mimile]

Hello, a bit long, sorry!
My DH is renting out our flat (Scotland).
Our previous tenant stayed for 11 months, and did not have an inventory when she signed her tenancy agreement, initially for 6 months. The tenancy was verbally renewed for another 6 months. She stayed a further 5 months prior to telling us she was moving, and asked to leave without a full month notice.
My DH kindly agreed. He visited the flat when the tenant was there and (verbally) identified issues which had to be addressed for full deposit to be returned.
The cleaning was one of these, as the flat was really unclean, with black mold in the bathroom, orange gunk all over the tiled bath enclosure, stained carpets (make-up / foundation), dirty kitchen / toilets / sinks.
The wooden floorboards were also badly marked with high heels punctures.
On check-out day, DH noticed that none of the cleaning had been done (she just packed and left) and told her that part of the deposit would be withheld because of the flat's condition. She laughed it off saying that anyway, the deposit (one month rent) was paid for by her parents. We were not impressed by this kind of behaviour / answer, but he, couldn't force her to clean.
We took some evening / WE time to clean as much as we could ourselve, and got a cleaning company in for the rest. Had to re-paint the bathroom due to the mold / black fungus. We will have to resand / varnish part of our floorboard at a later date due to the damage (the floors are the main "appeal factor" of the flat) and one of the carpet is stained beyond repair.
We ended up withholding part of the deposit for cleaning and damage (itemised email to tenant to inform her) - £50 for wet vacc rental, £80 for sanding + varnishing costs, £30 for mould / repaint, £60 for cleaning company,
Fast forward end of August, we receive an email from tenant's MIL, demanding return of the withheld deposit but for £30 (on the grounds of unfairness / adequate condition of the flat when she visited). Amongst reasons for return of the deposit are "fair wear and tear", and tenancy agreement being out of date. MIL also demanded us not to contact/bother tenant about this issue, but return money within 7 days.
We were on hols at the time, and replied we could not consider her request while away.
Upon our return, we consulted the CAB, who advised (albeit very briefly, and without supplying more info on what to do next) to not deal with this woman, as our contract was established with her (adult) DIL only, unless DIL produce written confirmation that she wishes her MIL to act on her behalf.
Tenant's MIL chased after the deposit again after a few week. We wrote back saying that CAB had advised us not to deal with her. This was followed by tenant's email simply stating that she wishes her MIL to act on her behalf.
MIL is threatening with legal action if money not returned.

Not sure where we stand now. Obviously, we know that not having an inventory is a big weakness, so is the lack of written evidence of the state of the flat at check out. We know about "fair wear and tear" - but this tenant was in for 11 months only on her own, and created more damage to floors / bathroom (mold) than occupancy by ourselves and other tenants over 4 years.
Options we know have are 1) to fight our corner (having no clue of where we stand legally) or 2) come to an amicable agreement (as the MIL put it). I hate the second option, just because I feel we are being bullied / blackmailed into it under the threat of legal action.

Can anyone advise?

I don't think you have a leg to stand on without an inventory. But yu hve learned a lesson for next time. I know they're time consuming, but they are designed to protect you from this very situation.
Fwiw, I'm not sure they are in a position to threaten legal action as the lack of inventory works both ways, but I think they would favour the tenant and tell you to give back the money, as you can't prove anything either way iyswim

Hmm, I'm a tenant and according to your tenat's MIL, my contract is well out of date since I've lived here over six years with no re-signing of contracts. Of course, that's bollox in Scots law. "Fair wear and tear", well, of course landlords get tax breaks to fix that, but imvho it doesn't mean complete destruction of a carpet, for example.

You have the receipts for everything you spent out on. You have previous experience with other tenants; have you kept receipts etc from previous tenancies ending? (There's always a bit of steam-cleaning or touching up the paintwork after all.) I think if you do, you have a reasonable case in court (it would be Small Claims Court, so you can DIY to keep costs down) to show that your tenant's damage was considerably more than "wear and tear".

Good luck. The MIL's trying it on.

I would agree with Lady, as a tenant of several properties over 15 years I would say without an inventory you cant prove the state of the flat before she moved in.

I would say also that the mould in bathroom could be as a result of poor ventilation ( your responsiblity) I am forever bleaching our bathroom because there is no fan fitted.

Also the 'damage' to the floors is almost definately wear and tear, did you specify that she couldn't wear high heels? how was she supposed to get around the flat?

Have you got any evidence of the damage caused? Before and after photos perhaps? If not, and you have repaired everything, you have no proof tenant caused any problems now. This plus no inventory means no chance winning any legal action. It's not enough to say you have done work. Written statement from cleaners saying what had to be done and cost incurred might hold bit of water.

Give them money back but do tell MIL what daughter said about not giving toss and suggest she might want to save her money in future.

I dont think you have a leg to stand on without an inventory. Having said that, some wear and tear is to be expected. I would expect to do a professional carpet clean between tenants, and possibly also touch up on paint. Was the flat sparkling clean when the tenant moved in? Can you prove that? (Pictures, bill from cleaning agency?) I think the only thing you can reasonably withhold for, is the money paid to the cleaning agency.
Did the contract state that no shoes could be worn inside? If it did not, you cant blame your tenant for having worn high heals, and you cant demand she repairs the floor.

im on your side but i don't know where you stand legally. did you take any photos of the state of the place. also did i understand that you let her off a months' rent at the end of the lease because she went early?

Thanks for all the very fast replies!
Flat was DH before we got married, and he is the one dealing with the renting out thing - he knows it was a mistake not to do an inventory and specify about the heels - this has now been done for our current tenants.
In my opinion, he is very very "soft" with the tenants, always go way out of his way to get all the safety stuff done regularly + repairs + etc. Hence the moving out early. She asked to move out before the end of her 40 days notice, and only paid rent pro-rata in her last month (3/4). It seemed right to DH at the time (young teacher, struggling to pay for her new flat + ours, etc...).
We do have pictures of the flat before she moved in (very general though, just room by room for advertising purposes), but not dated. We did not get to do many inspections while she was there, as she refused DH to visit the flat to pick up mail / do repairs unless she was present.
We also have "after" pictures, but not dated or the greatest quality.
Anyhow - I can see that we have no evidence for anything, by our own fault.
Would it have been tenant getting back to us saying "I think this is too much, I didn't mean to mark the floors, etc", I would probably have come to some kind of agreement.
It is just the fact that we tried to get her to put things back the right way (flat was spotless when she got it), remove her stupid foundation cream from the carpets, clean her toothpaste, furry mold, orange gunk, crap in the fridge etc... and she was having none of it, telling us "to take away as much of [the deposit] as you want, it's my dad's anyway".
Now, we are talking about a grown up woman, 24 years of age.
And now the MIL is trying it on.
I know tenants are generally a nightmare, but when you enter in a contract with an adult, you don't expect to have their parents shouting at you for their kids irresponsibility.
Not sure what we should do next - probably enter the "amicable agreement part" crap. Feeling like a mug basically. And on top of that, this "please don't bother tenant with all this" request from MIL. To hell with it.
Rant over (!)

I know, it is galling. But sometimes you just have to chalk it up to experience and move on.

Our last tenant cost us more than 7k in redecorations and repairs after she trashed our house and stole all the inventory of the fully furnished let.

"always go way out of his way to get all the safety stuff done regularly + repairs + etc"

err I don't think that's going out of the way, that would be what I expect from a landlord.

The cleaning, then yeah that's fair enough and should be charged for. Cleaning carpets between tenants (who have been there a year) I'd have thought would be expected.

The bathroom mould, then I think that's on you. People don't purposefully make rooms mouldy. Unless there's a fan that wasn't used.

Wooden floor boards, I'm on the fence, but am siding with previous posters.

Tenant should have paid the full months rent.

As for dealing with her ILs. I imagine a lot of us (albeit not me) are guilty for just letting them deal with things at their insistence for ease of life. Not an excuse, but understandable.

Sorry no actual legal advice to give

I guess we will indeed have to move on and learn from it.
ClimberChick - I agree with you on this point: a good landlord should provide safety check, repairs etc. But how long is the piece of string? Changing a lightbulb and this kind of stuff? Some tenant take some weird things for granted.
As for the mold, fait enough if you like furry mold as pet in the bathroom :) (there is a fan). In this case, it was just down to a total lack of cleaning for the duration of the tenancy (we are talking long-haired mold here). Gross, and also potentially a health and safety problem.
Problem is the grey area between "fair wear and tear" and reckless behaviour; tiping a pot of foundation on the carpet and not even trying to scrape it off is taking the biscuit - and for the floor boards, well, DH has just about ended hearing what I thought about it and has amended the contract (he will be the one whingeing and complaining when he'll have to sand and varnish again).

What really bother me is this IL/parents business - we (DH) enter a contract with one named adult, not their entire family; I think it is unfair to have to deal with a person totally unrelated to the damage caused other by than the fact that they have financially contributed to the deposit.

I'm not sure what differences there are between England and Scotland, but Shelter website may be able to shed some light on where you are.

I recently had a monumental battle with my ex LL, she wanted to take £415 from my deposit and cited a bunch of lies and fabrications to justify that amount.

I refer to your para:
"We took some evening / WE time to clean as much as we could ourselve, and got a cleaning company in for the rest. Had to re-paint the bathroom due to the mold / black fungus. We will have to resand / varnish part of our floorboard at a later date due to the damage (the floors are the main "appeal factor" of the flat) and one of the carpet is stained beyond repair.
We ended up withholding part of the deposit for cleaning and damage (itemised email to tenant to inform her) - £50 for wet vacc rental, £80 for sanding + varnishing costs, £30 for mould / repaint, £60 for cleaning company, "

Firstly the WE time issue... makes you sound entitled, you are earning money, being involved and rectifying properties between tenants is the inconvenience you are being paid for.

I'll not even dignify the comment you just made about "I know tenants are generally a nightmare".... DH was lax, you got shafted.

That out of the way, you would seem to have legitimate expenses incurred to make the property rentable.

When I went to the TDS in a single claim against my LL, the DPS ruled against her as

1. she didn't have a proper inventory, so they would not be able to establish the start condition.

1. she didn't provide any evidence to support her claims against my deposit.

OK so you can't prove the state of the flat in the first instance, but you seem to be able to show clear evidence of remedial work, you may have a shot.

As far as the out of date tenancy agreement, again Scotland may be different, but in England a contract that is allowed to continue is referred to as a statutory periodic agreement and the same stipulations as signed for in the original contract apply, save the notice periods, 2m calendar written from you to her and 1m from her to you.

Stained and filthy carpets is NOT fair wear and tear, not when you haven't even bothered to clean it.

My new, fabulous LL has asked that we do not cut anything directly on the formica, so i think you could say that no stilletos to be worn on the wood.

Don't allow yourselves to be bullied, do the best you can to defend this, make an appointment with CAB, consult Shelter Scotland properly and see what they say.

However, the lessons for next time are as follows:

Independent Inventory - signed by tenant and LL
Fully dated photographs of the condition prior to the tenant moving in.

If prior to an inventory you have had a professional cleaning company, then you can present this as part of the tenant pack, so that they know that they have to do the same prior to check out.

Thanks for your message LMHF. I don't want to be bullied, but since I am really unsure of where we stand legally, I don't want to get roped in any formal legal action costing time and money. This person means business and comes across very confidently re. legal position. We got very little from CAB, and cannot get through to Shelter Scotland.
As for my comment on tenants, it is only based on my limited experience as well as colleagues' and friends' - apparently we got off lightly in term of damage & dirtiness. Pretty sure there are loads of shit landlord out there, I had a fair few.
Anyhow - off to write this "amicable agreement letter".
Thanks for all the advice / replies!

you can contact shelter through the website by email, they will email you back!

Give it a go, you never know.

i hate to see anyone being taken advantage of.

Perhaps get DH to look into an agent to manage the letting, might save some hassle and you may have come back. not to mention you can get inspections arranged more easily..

My CAB were brilliant with my LL from hell, but you have to be focussed and do a lot of research yourself.

oh have you tried landlordzone? it's a fabulous forum!!! they will help you if they can!!

" I know tenants are generally a nightmare, " [hmmm]

I'm a landlord and think you need to put this one down to experience. BTL involves work and quite rightly so in my opinion.

However, the MIL is throwing her weight around and I would be tempted to call her bluff. Get her solicitor to write to you and take it from there - you don't have to employ a solicitor and can still settle without going anywhere near the small claims court.

Be professional and take your personal feelings out of it. The tenant sounds immature and spoilt - I get loads of these now and am quite upfront. When they give me notice (and I would never let them leave without notice), I write outlining our mutual responsibilites. I say the 'the property needs to be returned in a similar to condition to when you moved in. For the majority of my tenants, this means having the flat and carpets professionally cleaned'.

I also expect to get some cleaning done - paintowrk, fixing, new carpet every couple of years. To be blunt, it's business and treat it as such. That is also one of the reasons I don't do the cleaning myself I'm also quite slatternly).