Council now says children can not play in communal garden. after 40 years of them playing there.

[Oblomov]

I have a communal garden at the back of our house. only accessed from the houses that back onto it. 20 houses have access to this communal garden. there is a gate, with 2 padlocks that council use to come in and mow it. i let my 6 yr old play football with the 6 other kids aged 7-11. And i let my nearly 2 year old in there.
so, there have been some 'problems' recently. and now the council have said that we are allowed access rights only.
can i fight this ? children have played there for 40 years, as instructed by the council.
if it was employment law you could say thta it was 'custom and practice', i.e. we've been doing this for 15 years, so let it continue. but does thta also work in this situation.

so: can i summarise:
1969, children told not to play in streets, kicking fotball against garages, told to play in communal garden. my neighbour said in 1969 he received letter from council telling chidlren to play there.
2004, 1 neighbour complained about older boys kicking footballs, presumably hitting her fence ? but there was a petition that i also signed (although ds1 was only 6 mths at the time, i wanted him to be able to play int he future). the council said that a no ball games sign that had been put up, which had prompted the whole thing, would remain, but that football was fine.

of the 20 or so residents, 1 clearly hates football. 5 of us want it, including me, and the other 15 are pretty apathetic.

so, now 2010. same neighbour complains. then denies complaining. council woman sends 4 letters , has innumerate phone calls from all sorts. one of her letters says we can't play. then the next says we can. then the next says that she has passed it to her legal dept, because she 'has spent alot of time on this'. she sounds fed up. i am too. but then i think, this is your job. her letters are factually incorrect, often, but only on minor items.
my says, she's just had enough of this and passed it onto legal. the letter came back, something like 'originally, you were only given access rights'. i.e. no playing at all from now on. seems extreme.

so, shes' had enough and go tot he extreme of saying that you are only now allowed to use it for crossing over to visit someone else ?

but i want my ds1(6) and ds2(under 2) to be able to play there.
it is invalueable to me. in this day and age, when we are all paedophile scared, i let my kids run around, playing ( hopefully football, but if not allowed atleast just playing) with the other neighbours kids.

what can i/ what do i do ?

bump

Legally, as it's been used by the community as a 'green' (walk dogs, play etc) for this length of time it's legally a public green, the council can not just block it off or ban certain sectors of the community from playing there. I'll look for some info for you. You just have to show that it's been used as a green for this length of time.

an easy read version

Getting village green status means the council can't build on it so it's worth doing.

Talk to your local councillor. From a cynical point of view, your councillor would support you if the majority of the residents are in favour of it. But even leaving cynicism aside, this is just the sort of thing that your local councillor should be helping with.

I work in housing for my local council.

The no ball games signs are not legally enforceable.

The council officer (Tenant Services Officer I presume?) is probably overworked and just wants some sort of solution that will keep the pece in the neighbourhood.

There are various avenues that you could explore to find out your rights on this issue. You could try contacting TPAS - the tenant participation advisory service.

I tend to think that if everyone continue to play in the garden there's probably not a lot that the council can do to stop you. If they claimed that you're in breach of your tenancy agreement they'd have to take action against 5 families and those of us working for local authorities have increasingly strict frameworks to adhere to that give tenants far greater powers than previously.

Why not set up a residents' association? Your council will help. Get everyone together and talking about this.

Village Green status won't help - you have to have been using the land without permission and it can't be fenced

Thank you belle, but as fortyplus says, it is council owned and maintained and we have been using it with permission granted.
Forty, she is the tenancy management officer. 2 houses are council owned, other 18 are private residents , like me.
she suggested a meeting. and also suggetsed starting a residents assocaition, but i am loathed to take control of this, re having to commit time to it. I agrred to attend a meeting. which she said she was happy to organise. have sent 3 e-milas, asking for date of meeting. no response. in the meantime, the final letter arrives, saying access only.
I think she's washed her hands of it and wants no more to do with it.
I want to write a strong leter of complaint. I don't want to spend hours and hours chasing here, fleading a residents assocaition etc, attending meeeting.
I just want to write a letter saying this is extreme. and revert your decsion back to 'young children can play football', as per 3rd letter.
Or do you see this as a long battle for me, which i have to be prepared for ?

I know we can play there, and they probbaly couldn't stop us. but i wnat to legally have the right. i think we should be bale to. besides if we do it when we are not supposed to , presumably, complainer will be contacting council all the time re us not , or us, prosecuted fro contravening notices.

I am narked with council woman. every time i speak to her, she seems so reasonable. then her letters arrive and its like a different person.
the anger and animosity, this has casused is terribel. we have fallen out with our neighbours of 15 years. and it is partly becasue the council woman said one thing to them another to other residents. she told us we could play and wehn we did, he came out livid, thta we weren't adhereing to the latest letter.
when i asked her to put it in writing thta we now could, she grumbled at the time and expenses.
all gone sour. and i am furious that i am now left with children who can't go out there currently.

You need to go over her head and talk to her boss, especially as she is giving you conflicting information.

Really, just talk to your local councillor. Most council officers get suddenly very helpful when the councillor gets involved.

It depends on the zoning of the land as well. Councils don't own a lot of the land they look after. They do so on under the vestiges of 'highways' and often bits of land not associated with a particular property are classified as 'highway' (does not mean that cars can drive on them, just that they are publicly accessible).

I would suggest if you have access in your deeds, you need to ask specifically for a clarification of the terms of access (e.g. is it pass through access to get to the rear of your property or can you for example graze sheep there - you'd be amazed what access is established in odd places).

They probably cannot afford to enforce any notices in any case so I'd just bloody well ignore them in this instance. Also have a chat to the local paper and embarrass them into submission.

i might phone and ask to speak to her boss. i can't threaten her with councillor and newspaper aswell as complaint to her boss aswell, can I ? wouldn't that be a bit OTT ?

No need to threaten her. My father was a councillor for years and this was the sort of thing he'd help with all the time. The beauty of it is that they know the council bureaucracy well, have a direct line to the most senior staff and can usually stamp their feet a bit to make things happen. Just give him or her a ring and it'll probably be sorted within a week.

It's what they are there for.

Oblomov - it's certainly a great idea to get your local councillor involved. They're used to acting as go-between in situations such as this.

I would still strongly urge you to set up a residents' assoc. It needn't be a lot of work - though you probably won't get financial support as such a high percentage of homes are now owner occupied.

Council officers are well used to individuals with personal issues and you'll keep getting rebuffed. Once you set up an assoc you have a collective voice and therefore a lot more influence.

The councillor will love to be seen to help you with this. Play the game their way!

as another council employee (and a housing officer to boot), what fortyplus said, especially wrt setting up a TARA - strength in numbers and all that.

I have looked into setting up a RA and am not prepared to do so. No neighbour would pay subs, and i am certainly not prepared to be another treasurer and present accounts. I have years of experience of doing accounts for drinking mens clubs etc, but am not prepared to do all of this over one issue relating to children playing in an area that they have do so for 40 years.
I will contact my councillor, not that i know who our current one is presently. and also will push for the council to arrange a meeting.
surely that is enough. i have spent hours and hours on this issue already.

but thatk you all for your advice. i was unrealistically hoping that there was some technical issue that i could go back to the council with and say ..... you haven't done ..... but really all i can argue is that they are being 'unreasonable'.

constitution

apparently there have been 2 complaints recently. woman from council told me it was my next door neighbour and the man on the corner.

next door neighbour. fine. we get on fine. she is a busy body, but no proble. dh has had enough of her and can't be doing with any of this.
man on corner is quite frankly mad. incomprehensible when occassionally speaks. complained of noise to council. complained of next door stanna stairlift. after months of investigation, tuned out to be hiw OWN fridge !!

when we did bump into next door and her husband, her dh admitted that the ball very very rarely hit his fence and the truth was he didn't like the "sound of football".

so why woman at council gave all this nay more than the time it deserved, i don't know.

but i care. i know of 3 other woman who'se boys play football out there. they care and are pissed off.
there are another 2 young families moved in, girls, but they would probbaly want to use it. maybe not for fottball.

2 ekderly neighbours say they like the children playing there becasue it creates good noise and nice community.

the other residents just don't care either way, i think.

how can you make a RA out of that ? i would have to be chairman, treasurer and secretary myself. and as i said people just want to be left alone, not create RA.
no one would pay subs. I bet you that.
none of the others could do the accounts other than me. i mean the other 3 mums with football boys.

so i can't see how this is all going to work.

do you think i am being too negative ?

Extremely unprofessional of a council officer to tell you who was complaining! It's a fairly serious breach of confidentiality.

Accounts would just be a page at most. You wouldn't need subs - it would just be a case of having to meet your own costs of printing newsletters etc but as there are so few of you it wouldn't be much.

You couldn't take on all the other roles anyhow. So if you're treasurer you need someone who'll type up an occasional newsletter and contact everone to arrange meetings. Then someone to act as chair - they don't actually need to do much apart from keep everything in order at meetings. You'll probably find that a local primary school would let you have meetings there if you need a space large enough to invite everyone. Maybe your council would provide a notice board?

To be honest if you work for the council you spend your life hearing people whinge and wanting someone to sort everything out for them - whereas if local residents actually take a bit of responsibility themselves it improves the neighbourhood no end.

forty, wasn't just me she told. she told everyone. 3 other 'football' mums told me that they had spoken to her- council woman- and they all referd to her by her christian name, 9like they were freinds and spoke regularly. mind you, i feel thta way too, becasue i've spoken to her atleast 3 times)and the council woman had also told them my neighbour and the man on the corner.
my neighbour says she has never made a complaint. so someones lying.
i will have a talk to the others about RA.
Thank you for all your help.

I'd suggest that you get all the football playing children and parents round to yours for the afternoon and play football in your garden. While you're all there you can discuss the RA plan :)

I'd guess that your neighbours will very soon discover than it's better for them all to be playing in the communal areas than your garden.

Can you compromise AT ALL? I am thinking, put up some kind of barrier to stop football hitting anyone's fence, AT all, or only allow the kids to play it on certain days or NOT at certain times when it might upset the neighbours?

You need to try this approach rather than head to ehad, all or nothing.

It is after all a shared area.

You are sounding as though you only think you and the other pro's have any right to decide - this isn't going to make they anti's feel any better.

Plus it isn't fair. They have a right to be happy too.

You need to find a half way point. Don't assume their feelings aren't important and their complaints are meaningless.

Try to work together.

I phoned the council. And I have e-mailed my councillor.
The woman from the council said that she thought i wasn't interested in attending a meeting. odd seeing as i had said that i was. and had phoned 3 times and sent 2 e-mails, all unanswered, asking when it was. she considered the case closed.

The children were using a goal, flight. they had been using one for years, but they boy who owened it pulled it into his garden every night. my dh built them a new one, becasue old was just aged, bent and broken, and new one was part hidden by the side, in no ones way.
i tried to persuade the council woman that this had been used for years, ours recently and did protect the fences. she was having none of it.
I told her that my husband said to one of the complainers," but the thing is we've been stood here for 10 minutes talking, and not once has it hit your fence. I think it very rarely does."
The man responded " thats true. actually i just hate the sound of football".

i told the council this a long time ago. it negates his complaint of damage to his fence.

The council send a letter (1) saying, no playing. i phone up to complain and she says its o.k. , you can play, but she doesn't tell any of the other residents. so when we're out playing football, the next door neighbour, charges out, livid, and shouts at my husband , telling him ", haven't you seen the letter .... if i was 10 years younger i'd ....". its true. an 85 year old man threatening a man in his 40's. yes its turned sour. we used to get one with all our neighbours. then we get a letter (2) saying, you can play, but only if take a small goal back in your gardem after use.
then i receive an e-mail from her saying she's passed it to her legal dept.
then i get a final letter (3), saying, apparently when the houses were first built access only and that is how it is now. no playing.

no mention of the meeting that she encouraged me to attend, which i said was happy to do.

when i phone today. case closed.

all a big mess. the woman next door says it wasn't her. she has never complained and is upset by everyone's vitriol towards her. council woman breached confidentiality by telling me and lotsof others, that it was her in the first place.. but that was to my advantage.

i want my childrne to be able to play there.
we went through all of this in 2004. see my earlier posts. i could accept no footabll.
BUT their reasons are weak.
I'm sorry but they areally are.
Yes Flight their views are valid. of course. but no one uses uses it apart from the children. they want to what ?
put a time limit, so you only play at certain times.
if their reasons were valid, i would of course compromise.

but all of sudden , in this day and age of paedophile paranoia. I have a safe fenced off area for my 2 boys (6 and 2) to play. And currently that right to play has been withdrawn. after 40 years. and thye now are not allowed ot play AT ALL.

You think I sound harsh ? I am so upset.
I am trying to take a step back here and s see if I am being unreasonale. But i really don't think I am.

Becky, our garden is so tiny, that we wouldn't fit in. Thats why the huge communal area is so valued by me.

So waht is this area supposed to be for????!!!!

Somewhere for people to look at from their gardens/houses?

Sounds like you have a good case to complain --to- involve your councilor!

when you received the last letter, did you write back citing established use?

definitely request written replies for everything in future - so that you have a record you can show to anyone that complains.

otherwise a 'reasnable use' policy could be agreed?

I would ignore the council and carry on with the football. There have only been 2 complaints (one of them from a most definite odd ball) and it seems to me that this decision was made because the official involved couldn't be bothered to do her job properly.