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Shifting defined contribution to career average pension?

29 replies

Onandupw · 12/08/2022 08:51

I will get some professional advice on this, but just wondering if anyone had thoughts/knowledge on transferring money from a defined contribution pension to a career average pension?

I’ve got about £350 k in a dc pension and am about to become a member of the local government pension scheme - which is defined benefit.

I can transfer funds which would mean £7,500 (around) as a defined benefit per year.

I am not sure yet what that would cost me from the dc pension

I have no clue how to work out if this is worth doing!!

thanks for any input

OP posts:
Onandupw · 12/08/2022 08:53

I’m 46 btw and not looking to retire soon

OP posts:
wobytide · 12/08/2022 09:08

1/46 seems a poor conversion rate. Also consider things like the DC pension can be left as part of your estate but once converted to DB only your spouse(if any) could benefit.

Likewise a DC pension allows more flexibility to access earlier without causing a reduction that accessing a DB pension would

Onandupw · 12/08/2022 09:10

Thanks @wobytide

assuming that I am very smart at some things but one of those things is not maths…can you explain to me what you mean by the conversion rate and how that is applied. Thank you!!

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ChessieFL · 15/08/2022 12:36

@Onandupw Where did you get the £7500 figure from? If you haven’t actually joined the LGPS yet they won’t have told you what the transfer value will buy. Are you getting confused with the amount of additional pension you can buy? That’s different to transferring benefits.

When you join the LGPS they will ask if you have any previous pensions you want to consider transferring. They will then get the transfer value from your previous arrangement and will then tell you how much pension it will buy in the LGPS. You need that information before you can decide if transferring is a good idea. You can get projections from your current pension provider of the likely pension you might get if you don’t transfer, to compare against.

The conversion rate the previous poster referred to is the rate at which your previous pension fund ‘converts’ to the pension available in the LGPS. On the figures you quoted, each pound of pension ‘bought’ by the transfer costs you £46 of your previous fund (£350k divided by £7500). However as mentioned I don’t think that figure is correct and you need to find out the actual figure before doing anything.

SausagePourHomme · 15/08/2022 12:39

This us too important not to speak to a financial advisor

SausagePourHomme · 15/08/2022 12:40

Sorry just re-read and you are going to. As you were

Onandupw · 15/08/2022 13:08

@ChessieFL yes that is indeed what I am confusing it with!

@SausagePourHomme 😂 yes, the need for professional advice has only been further confirmed by this thread showing that I can’t even get the question right let alone the answer…

thanks all!

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Plexie · 16/08/2022 12:22

Are you sure you can transfer a pot of money into LGPS and get an annual defined benefit from it? Even for current members, the option to pay more and buy 'additional years' ended a long time ago. Nowadays extra payments (Additional Voluntary Contributions) are invested for growth, they don't increase your defined benefit.

Onandupw · 16/08/2022 12:34

@Plexie my understanding was that you cohod
buy additional defined benefit up to circa £7k each year?

looking at the website you can do this and also invest as a standard defined contribution thing?

I will come back and let everyone now what I find out what once I get proper advice on it 😁

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ChessieFL · 16/08/2022 12:52

Yes you can transfer a previous pension into the LGPS and get an annual defined benefit pension from it.

www.lgpsmember.org/your-pension/paying-in/transferring-in/

And yes you can buy additional annual defined pension in the LGPS. This is separate from transferring in benefits. You can also pay AVCs which are linked to the LGPS but paid to a separate company and these aren’t defined benefit.

www.lgpsmember.org/your-pension/paying-in/paying-more/

Headbandheart · 16/08/2022 13:06

Plexie · 16/08/2022 12:22

Are you sure you can transfer a pot of money into LGPS and get an annual defined benefit from it? Even for current members, the option to pay more and buy 'additional years' ended a long time ago. Nowadays extra payments (Additional Voluntary Contributions) are invested for growth, they don't increase your defined benefit.

Yea, same here…my mind is exploding on how on earth they’d calculate this based on average earnings.

any additional money you put into defined benefits is always as an AVC in my experience. So when I was paid my bonus and “salary sacrificed “ it to my pension it went into my AVC pot (additional voluntary contribution). That did not increase my pension payment as part of my final salary pension calculation.

I could have converted that AVC into a pension at retirement- but even my company wouldn’t administer this …I’d have needed to go to an external pension provider to buy my annuity or draw down product.

what I did, and most people do IMHE, is to use the AVC as all or part of my tax free lump sum at retirement. So my AVC pot was worth about 15% of my equivlent valuation of my final salary scheme pension “pot” ( this does get a valuation for tax purposes each year but it’s a theoretical amount as you can’t take all that money out of scheme, it’s used for tax or a transfer value if you were idiotic enough to transfer it out)

I took all my AVC amount tax free, and did not take any lump sum from my defined benefit scheme so I have maxed out my monthly pension payments to the full amount. That is normally the best way as the income paid by final salary schemes is higher than I could get form taking tax free lump sum and sticking that into a bank etc and it is guaranteed and protected.

becuase I could take my AVC tax free, and pay into it tax free ( I was higher rate tax payer) it made sense to salary sacrifice as much as possible into it, in the last few years before retirement. I knew I didn’t need all my salary (kids left home by then), and it was a much better deal than saving income into a bank or even stocks and shares after tax deducted through PAYE. In effect the government was giving me 40% extra. My company also incentivised us by matching AVC Payments up to a certain level at a given % ( so they paid like 10p for every £1i saved).

so, I assume your transferred pension sum will go into an AVC (may be called something different). The only advantage to doing that would be if management costs were covered entirely by your company so that every £ you transfer and then grow is not be siphoned off with annual management fees. And if the company your new employers use has a better track record of returns than your existing pension investment company.and if the transfer value you are offered is fair and reasonable

some companies like mine, had a great pension modeller that looked at both final salary pension and AVC . That was really useful to help me make decisions in last 10 working years …so if your new company has one that may be another benefit to transfer, so that you can get continuous online access in one place to see the whole picture. It was very easy for me to change the amount of AVC I paid per month, or to switch my investment profile annually or for life events.

you need to get confirmation from new company of where your transfer will be invested- is it really into your average salary pension or is it a type of AVC. If they say it will go into AVC, ask them for detials of scheme and why it might be better for you. It nice you know that you can discuss with financial advisor . Make sure advisor is not paid any commission though (even some IFA do get fees paid). They’re not going to get any money form you transferring to company so if they make their money by recommending products they’ll not exactly be neutral. In truth it’s better to pay a fee upfront and know you are getting independent advice.

Onandupw · 16/08/2022 14:04

Thanks @Headbandheart helpful

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NothingIsWrong · 17/08/2022 09:38

I am in the middle of transferring my pots into the LGPS - for the first year of your employment you have the option to buy additional benefit. After that, any extra is an AVC.

I am transferring in a few small pots from previous employers, I think it is around £4k extra annual pension

PosiePerkinPootleFlump · 17/08/2022 09:52

I would not do it. I'd keep two pensions - your new career average scheme, and your existing savings in a SIPP or other scheme.
Generally speaking you will get a fairly poor conversion rate on the existing savings compared to investing it and then drawing down, because your new pension scheme is taking the risk (by giving you guaranteed income) rather than you.
It's the reason lots of people no longer buy annuities with their pension pot for guaranteed sums but instead would prefer to do flexible drawdown.
There are lots of calculators to give an estimate for what you'd expect to get via investment and flexible drawdown. I did a comparison of several a couple of months ago and they were all pretty consistent. Search for something like 'retirement income calculator' or 'pension calculator'

Eg www.pensionbee.com/pension-calculator

You can usually set up to put in your lump sum but zero future contributions. Be aware some will factor in state pension so you need to exclude for a direct comparison to your dc scheme.

I put your figures into the one above - £350k invested now, no further contributions, exclude state pension and don't take a lump sum. It suggested you could draw down £20k per year and it last until age over 100. That sounds much better than a guaranteed £7.5k to me - and yes it is a projection not a guarantee but at that difference I'd be willing to take some risk. Especially as you will have a smaller index linked guaranteed pension alongside

ChessieFL · 17/08/2022 18:50

@NothingIsWrong you’re also getting confused between transferring in benefits and buying additional pension.

You’re right that you can only transfer-in previous benefits within a year of joining the LGPS. However, you are able to buy additional pension and/or pay AVCs any time while you’re paying into the LGPS. See the links I posted upthread.

Polkadotties · 24/08/2022 23:03

LGPS administrator here. When you join your new scheme ask them to calculate a transfer in quote based on the CETV of old pension. This will provide you with an annual pension figure which will be added to the current years CARE accrual.
The LGPS transfer in factors are very generous.
Once that money is transferred it is completely safe. It will only go up with inflation and provide guaranteed life long income to you and any surviving spouse/partner.

Ilikewinter · 22/09/2022 16:40

Ive just transferred in £98k and will get a return of £8700, im 45.
Remember you only have 12 months to complete the transfer, its taken me nearly 9 months from start to finish!

Teenyliving · 22/09/2022 16:42

Oh thanks - cripes I’d better get on it!!!

i think it’s going to be a hard decision because that is a very good transfer rate isn’t it

Teenyliving · 22/09/2022 16:45

If it’s the same rates for me I think that would be around £30k - which is an amazing guaranteed pension isn’t it.

eugh. Decisions!

and yes next week ill get some professional advice!

Ilikewinter · 22/09/2022 16:50

I've found it a really frustrating process to be honest, nothing happens with any pace. I actually had £104k to transfer but by the time they actually requested the funds it was about 8 weeks later and of course the value of my pot had dropped, this also meant my final £ had dropped from their initial transfer quote - of course if it had gone up I'd have gained 😫 ..... im glad its all sorted and I can forget about bloomin pensions for now!

Teenyliving · 22/09/2022 17:59

@Ilikewinter did you get professional advice??

im dreading engaging with the whole thing!!

Ilikewinter · 22/09/2022 18:49

I didnt get professional advice but I posted questions in the pension forum on Martin Lewis website and there was quite a lot of advice and previous threads from people who seemed to be knowledgable.....although saying I took pension advice from a group of strangers on the internet seems bonkers really !!! ...and I read all the info I could find about the pension scheme to understand it.
I think in your situation with your amount of money already saved up I would take advice!

Bard6817 · 28/09/2022 14:50

£350k in a DC plus whatever you will accrue in a new career average sounds good to me.

Make sure the £350k is not costing you excess charges, use Vanguard as a benchmark, and compare other platforms too.

The DC will allow you to access it earlier than the career average, ie. you can retire early on the DC, then get the state pension and the career average at normal retirement ages. DC’s don’t get actuarily reduced if you take them at 55. career averages do.

Also, from an inheritance perspective the DC can be passed on, career average and DB schemes only work because some people die quicker than others when they retire, and thus they only payout a small portion of £7k x 35 years that you get if you live 35 years after retirement.

Sometimes it’s not just about value for money or conversion rates, it’s about contingencies, choices and IHT. Also, the DC can be passed on without incurring IHT in some circumstances so worth considering for estate planning if you have property too.

Depending on your age, investment knowledge and choices, it is feasible to double that £350k in 5-7 years.

Although i’m not a big fan of FA’s, or indeed IFA’s, they can serve a purpose, so it may be worth you getting some ‘fee only’ advice rather than a percentage and an ongoing relationship. Fees keep the finance industry going and they control the Finance ombusdemen (there is very little consumer input) which is a whole other thread, but my point is, educate yourself, play with virtual portfolios and learn a bit about Forex (as everyone this week is now an expert and blaming Tories lol) and don’t rush to buy anything right now, as we are in the middle of a stock market crash, but it’s been masked for the uk due to forex.

Onandupw · 28/09/2022 15:46

@Bard6817 thanks thsatd helpful!

yes its a good sum and this is a very good problem to have! It has been a slog to get it to that though.

it’s with the FSA scheme so I’m figuring it’s about as secure as a db scheme can be. I don’t really want to actively engage with managing it - I’m just not interested in shares etc.

im 46 so quite a few years left to go….

OP posts:
Teenyliving · 28/09/2022 15:47

Dc scheme I meant!

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