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Discuss investments with other users on our Investment forum. For more advice read our tips for saving for your child's future.

Investments still declining

222 replies

Livvyliv18 · 04/05/2022 10:50

Are anyones investments showing signs of recovery yet ?My pension has lost a significant amount in the last 3 months and still seems to be going down.
This happened in first lockdown but then started to do really well so I know it can improve.
Im just starting to panic and unsure if I need to see a financial advisor to look at it.
Im not 55 for another 5 years so maybe I don’t need to panic just yet
Any advice /reassurance greatly appreciated

OP posts:
swifty1974 · 23/06/2022 16:21

FemmeNatal · 23/06/2022 16:08

You lied about having put £200k into Bitcoin, you hadn’t, and haven’t.

There’s no way any bank would let you remortgage your buy Bitcoin either, so either that’s a lie too, or you committed mortgage fraud by claiming that the money was for something else.

No, I didnt and I havent invested in Bitcoin. Im a complete fantasist who just comes on here to live out my dreams of discussing investments with Heads if Risk because my life is so empty and dull....

Still, suppose youre wrong and Im not a complete liar and I do actually own 8.10554859 BTC, what do you see as the risks of investing in bitcoin and why? Do you have any answers or are you just going to continue sniping at me to avoid having to actually engage your brain and have a grown up debate?

daisymoo2 · 23/06/2022 17:17

swifty1974 · 23/06/2022 16:21

No, I didnt and I havent invested in Bitcoin. Im a complete fantasist who just comes on here to live out my dreams of discussing investments with Heads if Risk because my life is so empty and dull....

Still, suppose youre wrong and Im not a complete liar and I do actually own 8.10554859 BTC, what do you see as the risks of investing in bitcoin and why? Do you have any answers or are you just going to continue sniping at me to avoid having to actually engage your brain and have a grown up debate?

This all seems a bit harsh @swifty1974 .
The risk I see with BTC is that people stop wanting to buy it. It’s got no underlying value unless people keep believing it’s worth something. This is a much much bigger risk with BTC than it is buying property or a small slice of a company as I can estimate the income I can generate from both of those asset classes in the future. Not the case with BTC as it won’t ever generate income.

brown543 · 23/06/2022 17:39

I just can't get comfortable with crypto. I have an interest only mortgage backed by S&S ISAs so I have a decent appetite for risk but crypto scares me.

I would be willing to put a thousand in but I can't imagine having the balls to invest tens of thousands in it.

I'm not head of risk but my background is corporate finance/investment banking so I have some knowledge of investing.

Back to the original post, I'd be looking to diversify across a range of investments - funds, ETFs and ITs across different sectors with some in commodities and infrastructure. That's enough of a rollercoaster ride on the risk front for me.

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 08:25

daisymoo2 · 23/06/2022 17:17

This all seems a bit harsh @swifty1974 .
The risk I see with BTC is that people stop wanting to buy it. It’s got no underlying value unless people keep believing it’s worth something. This is a much much bigger risk with BTC than it is buying property or a small slice of a company as I can estimate the income I can generate from both of those asset classes in the future. Not the case with BTC as it won’t ever generate income.

So you don't actually thing it's a pyramid scheme as you previously said then? Just as I thought, you were probably just repeating what you'd heard someone else say. In terms of demand for BTC you're just worried people will stop wanting to buy it. This shows you've done little or no research because if you had you'd see that demand is increasing year on year.....and what about all the publicly traded huge bitcoin miners such as Marathon? Do you think they're just having a punt or have do you think they might have done some research before investing millions in their facilities and equipment. What about all the investment in the lightning network. Do you even know what that is? I'm guessing you don't. As I said right at the start your comments are based on a lack of understanding and research. I have no problem if you're just scared of it or it makes you uncomfortable but please, if you can't back up your claims with anything then maybe you should keep them to yourself rather than misleading people.

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 08:35

brown543 · 23/06/2022 17:39

I just can't get comfortable with crypto. I have an interest only mortgage backed by S&S ISAs so I have a decent appetite for risk but crypto scares me.

I would be willing to put a thousand in but I can't imagine having the balls to invest tens of thousands in it.

I'm not head of risk but my background is corporate finance/investment banking so I have some knowledge of investing.

Back to the original post, I'd be looking to diversify across a range of investments - funds, ETFs and ITs across different sectors with some in commodities and infrastructure. That's enough of a rollercoaster ride on the risk front for me.

Most people feel the same about crypto in my experience....I avoided it for years because I thought it was all a bit iffy. I then spent hundreds of hours researching blockchains, crypto and bitcoin and to be honest it was a real eye opener. There's a lot of crap out there (including Ethereum IMO) but Bitcoin has everything going for it as far as I can see. I'm just saying it might be worth your time to have a look. By the same token I respect anyone whos open enough tho say it just makes them uncomfortable because that's exactly where I was at one time. At least you're not calling it a Ponzi scheme like some others on here.

brown543 · 24/06/2022 08:41

I confess that I had to write an article on crypto...and wasn't really any the wiser after. (The same might well be true for anyone reading it...).

I slightly struggle with the finite limit and whether they could U-turn on that. It's also crazily volatile. Even more than the 50% I've lost on some of my tech heavy investment trust since November. Ouch.

The other off-putting part is the lack of regulation and the hassle of the cold v hot wallets.

I understand that sterling is a fiat currency. But ultimately the government wouldn't let it fail. That's the stumbling block I can't get past for crypto. The risk, however small, that your crypto could be worthless.

daisymoo2 · 24/06/2022 09:49

@swifty1974 businesses like Marathon are no different to hundreds of other businesses investing in R&D. Happens all the time. They’ve usually funded by a diverse group of investors who have diversified and this forms part of the ‘take a punt’ element of their investment strategy. If demand for BTC is increasing all the time why has the price fallen? There will be no future revenue stream so it is all based on new BTC purchasers propping up the price for early purchasers (I’m deliberately not calling them investors) and thus the pyramid analogy. It’s all based on a massive gamble and putting all chips on that one gamble is a hugely risky investing strategy regardless of how strongly you believe it could perform in the future. It could just as easily be worth absolutely nothing in 10 years time. There are so many other asset classes I’d invest in first but good luck with your own investment strategy. Time will tell if it pays off.

woodhill · 24/06/2022 10:00

I'm still dripping my cash inside the investment in the "sale". It's not down as much

daisymoo2 · 24/06/2022 10:06

@brown543 thanks for your very sensible post.

Blaggertyjibbet · 24/06/2022 11:14

On the original topic, did anyone read this piece by Claer Barrett in the FT? I thought it was really interesting. It makes me think that I should just continue with the usual direct debit but won’t put in any extra just yet, as further falls are likely to come.

www.ft.com/content/0bcf0049-711a-4032-b6fe-2a6288510cce

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 11:44

Ok, so firstly I'll address @brown543 then @daisymoo2

In terms of the finite limit - it is what it is. Its written into the protocol and cant be changed. Also you seem to think that theres someone in control of it - Im saying this in response to your comment that "they could do a U turn". There is nobody running or in control of Bitcoin - thats the beauty of it, its completely decentralised and only a 51% attack could change anything which is both unlikely and almost impossible. Etherium is very different "they" could and have changed the protocol an numerous occasions to suit their own needs (much like our own Bank of England - very suspect)

In terms of volatility - youre right it is very volatile as I addressed im my earlier post. This is mainly due to all the part time private investors and traders who (like lemmings) all seem to lose their shit every time it moves one way or the other. Once the institutional investors and regulation comes in that will change but by then you'll have missed the boat.

The government wouldnt let it fail???? (fiat) really??? That ship has sailed, hence ever growing debt, inflation and irresponsible QE. We have invented billions and billions of pounds out of thin air - its actually frightening. If people understood how much of a mess were in there would be riots in the streets - graph below illustrates my point.

@daisymoo2 Why has the price fallen??? Youre head of risk arent you. Have a look around you. Everyone is skint, inflation is at a 40 year high, economic growth is slowing down, recession on the horizon, cost of living increasing, interest rates rising....really??? do I need to go on. These are all short - medium term issues. Bitcoin demand is a long term forecast. Its not going anywhere and its becoming ever more scarce. Ive already acknowledged that being "all in" is a risk - Im not asking you to comment on my investment strategy Im asking you to comment on Bitcoin as an asset and its risks. The fact that you think @brown543 is talking sense and youre unable to see why Bitcoin has fallen says a lot about your judgement.

Investments still declining
swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:19

@daisymoo2 @brown543 maybe you should give this a read.
committees.parliament.uk/publications/6725/documents/71894/default/

The numbers are staggering as is the effect on our crumbling economy. This was published by the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee.

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:25

Heres the conclusion
Conclusion
21. When quantitative easing was introduced it was envisaged that it would

support the UK economy after a sharp fall in aggregate demand following

the 2008–09 global financial crisis. However, over the last decade it has

been deployed in various circumstances quite different from those of

2009 to tackle a range of different problems. This has had a ratchet effect,

whereby the scale of quantitative easing has been increased repeatedly, with

no subsequent attempts to reverse it. This has only served to exacerbate

the challenges involved in unwinding the policy. The Bank insists that

quantitative easing has been an essential response to extraordinary and fast-
moving events and always in line with its price stability mandate. However,

the effects of quantitative easing remain poorly understood and in recent

years, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Bank has struggled

to explain why it was the appropriate response to particular economic

circumstances. (Paragraph 180)
22. Trade-offs that may have been acceptable in a policy designed as a temporary

measure have become increasingly controversial as the programme has

persisted. While the scale of quantitative easing has increased substantially

over the last decade, there has not been a corresponding increase in the

Bank of England’s understanding of the policy’s effects on the economy

in the short, medium and long term. While we recognise that quantitative

easing has prevented economic crises from spiralling downwards, its effect

on inflation and output is uncertain, and it may also have increased wealth

inequality by raising the price of certain assets, benefitting those who own

them. The Bank of England and HM Treasury must do more to acknowledge

this uncertainty and to understand these effects. (Paragraph 181)
23. Quantitative easing has also made Bank of England and HM Treasury

policymaking more interdependent, blurring monetary and fiscal policy,

and this has started to erode the perception that the Bank has acted wholly

QUAnTITATIVE EASIng: A DAngEROUS ADDICTIOn 59
independently of political considerations. We are concerned that scepticism

of the Bank’s stated reasons for quantitative easing grew significantly during

the COVID-19 pandemic, when many market participants said that they

believed the Bank of England had used quantitative easing primarily to

finance the government’s deficit spending. If such sentiments continue to

spread, the effectiveness of the Bank’s policies will be threatened severely. A

reappraisal of how the Bank communicates its reasons for quantitative easing

is needed urgently, as is the need for the Bank to provide a way for the public

and Parliament to judge the success of the programme to ensure that it can

be held properly to account for its decisions. (Paragraph 182)
24. Finally, we are concerned that the scale of quantitative easing exposes the

Bank of England to political pressure not to raise interest rates if rising

inflation does not prove to be short-term as is forecast by the Bank. The

Bank must define more clearly what it means when it states that rising

inflation will be “transitory”; and it must explain in more detail why it is

appropriate to continue with previously announced asset purchases when

the economy is growing and inflation is rising at a faster rate than the Bank

expected. The design of the quantitative easing programme and the size of

the Bank’s balance sheet—now equivalent to 40% of gDP—has increased

the sensitivity of the public finances to a substantial rise in debt servicing

costs if the Bank needed to raise interest rates to control inflation. This will

test the Bank’s independence. If it does not respond to the inflation threat

early enough, it may be substantially more difficult for the Bank to curb it

later. Failure to pass this test would damage hard won trust in the Bank of

England’s ability to achieve its mandate. (Paragraph 183)
25. We sympathise with the Bank of England that it has had to meet its mandate in

an economic environment in which its independence has been more difficult

to define compared to when operational independence was granted in 1997.

Dealing with the economic consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic means

the Bank necessarily working more closely with HM Treasury to ensure

policy is complementary. However, HM Treasury has not helped to clarify

its relationship with the Bank in its ambiguous answers to us. Furthermore,

adding additional roles to the Bank risks it losing focus on its primary

responsibility to control inflation. (Paragraph 184)

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:30

@brown543 do you still think the Government wont let it fail? They have no idea what theyre doing or how to get out of the mess theyve got us into

daisymoo2 · 24/06/2022 12:32

@swifty1974 Incorrect, I’m not head of risk for a bank. So you think the only reason the BTC price has fallen 50% since April is economic factors like QE? Why has the FTSE 100 index only fallen 5% then?

QE is very convenient for a government with a lot of debt. I can’t see them wanting to regulate BTC in a hurry when it impairs their ability to control inflation (or otherwise) and shrink the national debt at their own choosing.

As I said, BTC and other crypto is not for me. I can see why you’re so invested in trying to ensure others want to keep buying it though.

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:34

And you think Bitcoin is risky....your investments are in the hands of a banking system that is utterly bankrupt with no plan other than to keep inventing money out of thin air...

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:37

FemmeNatal · 23/06/2022 12:36

Well, my bank thinks I know enough to be head of risk, so I hope I do know quite a lot.

What’s your background in finance?

So just to clarify are you or are you not Head of Risk at your bank because thats what you actually said you were?

FemmeNatal · 24/06/2022 12:39

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:37

So just to clarify are you or are you not Head of Risk at your bank because thats what you actually said you were?

You are replying to two different people. You are coming across as a bit thick at this point. Innumerate, dishonest, deluded.

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:39

To be honest I didnt believe you for a minute....Its just fun watching you squirm your way out of difficult questions because you dont have the knowledge to back up your claims....
You actually accused me of being a liar....judging by ones own standards were we?

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:39

daisymoo2 · 24/06/2022 12:32

@swifty1974 Incorrect, I’m not head of risk for a bank. So you think the only reason the BTC price has fallen 50% since April is economic factors like QE? Why has the FTSE 100 index only fallen 5% then?

QE is very convenient for a government with a lot of debt. I can’t see them wanting to regulate BTC in a hurry when it impairs their ability to control inflation (or otherwise) and shrink the national debt at their own choosing.

As I said, BTC and other crypto is not for me. I can see why you’re so invested in trying to ensure others want to keep buying it though.

Im not head of risk for a bank

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:41

Yeah, thats a fair cop......in my defence there are a lot of people talking utter crap on here so its difficult to keep up with you all. My apologies

Nesbo · 24/06/2022 12:43

Swifty1974 - you seem desperate to convince people on the internet that you’re right, and are just as emotionally over-invested in cryto as you are financially over-invested in it.

As you get angry with the non-believers you seem just moments away from posting “hodl” memes!

Volatility, slow transaction times, unwillingness of people to spend it as a currency (as opposed to hoard it as a potential investment), vulnerability to restrictive government legislation, excessive power consumption and concerns about ability to scale …there are all sorts of reasons any sensible invester would be wary of crypto.

It might usefully form part of a balanced portfolio, but if you go all in don’t kid yourself that you are an investor who has done all the research with a cool head. You’re just a gambler - excited at the prospect of a possible big win but clearly nervous enough to want to spend a great deal of time telling other people that it isn’t really a gamble at all.

FemmeNatal · 24/06/2022 12:44

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:39

To be honest I didnt believe you for a minute....Its just fun watching you squirm your way out of difficult questions because you dont have the knowledge to back up your claims....
You actually accused me of being a liar....judging by ones own standards were we?

Yes, you lied. You said that you had bought £209k of Bitcoin, and then had to admit that that was a lie.

The person you are badgering about being head of risk, that’s another poster, not me. You can see who’s posting as their name is above the post.

You seem to be really struggling here, and I suspect that even the much smaller investment than your original dishonest claim is more than you can afford to lose.

FemmeNatal · 24/06/2022 12:45

swifty1974 · 24/06/2022 12:41

Yeah, thats a fair cop......in my defence there are a lot of people talking utter crap on here so its difficult to keep up with you all. My apologies

So, your mortgage fraud. You didn’t borrow by telling the bank you were going to gamble on Bitcoin, so what lie did you use?

Hermione101 · 24/06/2022 13:04

@Blaggertyjibbet I dollar cost average 3x a month. I am buying no matter what the markets are doing, whether they are up or down. Research shows that if you try to time the market, you miss out on gains and rallies in bear markets, which ends up affecting overall lifetime returns.

Also, the Fear and Greed index is at extreme fear (although moving up over the past few days). You know the old Buffet saying....be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful....