Slow growing Embryos

[Nosejug]

I've had three round of IVF now, currently stewing over day 5 news.

round 1: 3 eggs, 3 fertilised, only one made it to day 5 transferred (failed)
round 2: 1 egg, fertilised, decent 8 cell day 3 transferred (failed)
round 3: 5 eggs, all fertilised but one didn't continue, day 3: 1 top grade, one 7 cell, two lower numbers of cells.. and day 5 below

the embryologist call was weird, she was really unclear with her information and kept saying she doesn't understand me when I ask for more info. Maybe my scottish accent? But basically one is early blast on day 5 so is slow, and 3 are "day 4", I asked how many cells and she says we don't count the cells on day 4 (but its day 5) does she mean they're a morula or compacted morula? why not say so if thats the case? "day 4" is obvs an incredibly vague description for a day 5 emrbyo. I couldn't think clearly as I was processing that my embryos were basically not surviving. I kept trying to press her for more info but there was background noise on her end and she said it was hard to hear me, and wasn't forthright with answers. Id started crying so just said goodbye. But is that what she meant?

I've been taking ubiquinol to try help my embryo speed (mitochondrial function) but obvs I don't think its a guarantee. I'm in an awfully destructive mood...
Anyone had slow growing embryos that made it?

Frustrating not to have had clearer information during such a stressful time.

I think, as you said, she almost certainly meant that they're at morula stage, so individual cells are no longer counted - the appearance is one mass. These often do make it by day 6 or 7. Your 7 cell on day 3 may particularly have a decent chance. Good luck.

Unfortunately even the 8 cell day three stopped growing, all embryos arrested. I guess unfortunately is not the right word, I guess ish I could have some answers. My eggs have all fertilised (over 3 cycles that’s 9/9) but one didn’t make it past day one, all have made it to day three but at different rates, I’ve always had 7 or 8 cells at day three, and one this round was top quality at that point. The internet seems to indicate male factor may be an issue here, but how will I ever know. Why is the only solution always to use an egg donor. Just waiting for the dark heavy cloud to pass.

Im so sorry for your update. Is your partner on supplements? Has he had a semen sample done and tested or is it just you that is doing all the tests? It seems as though you have pretty decent eggs as they are mature and all fertilise but just not surviving which does seem to indicate a sperm issue. Im no expert though.

Hiya!
that sounds like a terrible conversation to have. Are you able to send your questions via email?

if it helps I had 3 that made it to day 5. the 2 that were bigger were described as being early blastocysts (EB) and were described EB 1 and EB2. These are not grades- they specifically said they could not grade. they transferred both of these, I got pregnant and it ended in miscarriage.

the 3rd was a morula and was grown to day 6 and graded at 4BB. It’s still in the freezer.

really interested in anything you have found on why they might be slow growing. I hadn’t seen anything on the male side but it had crossed my mind. I guess in the sense of why do they suggest egg donor first rather than sperm donor.

i wondered whether mine were slow growing as I only took very small amounts of CQ10 because I found that I couldn’t sleep on higher doses.

Hey both, spoke to the consultant and yeah he did say it could be male factor for the two strong embryos at day 3 slowing down. If it happens again in this cycle then we potentially should try donor as that will be my last cycle with own eggs. Can’t afford any more. Partners been on impryl, has low morphology and high round cell count, had an operation for a varicocele too. Currently on day 4 of treatment in cycle 2. Here’s hoping I get lots (5 was lots for me) of eggs again.

Hi OP, I’m sorry to hear you are going through this. I am experiencing a similar pattern, I found it completely bewildering on my first cycle after getting my hopes up at day 3. I have low AMH and so was pleasantly surprised at retrieving 5 eggs but none made it through unfortunately.

Cycle 1: 5 eggs , 3 fertilised (using ICSI due to 3% morphology), all made it to day 3 with high grading. None made it to day 5.

The doctor said that arrest after day 3 indicates male factor issue. I asked if a DNA fragmentation test would be advisable but he said to try PICSI on the next cycle instead.

Cycle 2: 3 eggs, 2 fertilised, both made it to day 3, one made it to blast. So a better result than last time.

What fertilisation process are your clinic using for you ?

Hi @Nosejugit does sound like make factor to me too. My husband has severe male factor infertility and our first two rounds we didn’t get any day 5s, despite them all looking amazing on day 3. Our situation is a bit different because he has obstructive azoospermia so they can only retrieve his sperm by surgery. However after the first two disaster rounds he made a lot of lifestyle changes to improve the sperm before the second sperm retrieval surgery.

One really important thing is for him to avoid hot baths, tight pants, cycling etc .. anything that heats up the testicles. Healthy eating, limited caffeine, no alcohol. My husband took Proxceed and a supplement called lycopene, which he was recommended to take by one of the top urologists in the county. If you google it, it helps sperm quality. I think it’s an extract from tomatoes.

https://www.vitabiotics.com/products/ultra-lycopene-tablets?network=google_x&placement=&keyword=&device=&campaignid=18064843341&adgroupid=&creativeid=&saf_src=google_x&saf_pt=&saf_kw=&saf_dv=&saf_cam=18064843341&saf_grp=&saf_ad=&account_id=6427961420&saf_acc=6427961420&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21191342144&gbraid=0AAAAADqZT35jbjfV2gcibnegCUdALUyxo&gclid=CjwKCAjw1dLDBhBoEiwAQNRiQSjAu5mZpvnHuFAhRsgIL_210PZrkrdOaD-O3btl4zQDyrAbUTxWMRoCwVUQAvD_BwE

aw thanks everyone for your replies. Sorry it took me a bit to get back to the messages, our second cycle was cancelled midweek becuase of low response I'm v low amh, and had only one large follicle on each ovary on day 4 stims. they recommended resting a month. and having a nightmare trying to store the meds in this temporary flat rental while i get treatment down here (london). The fridge is terrible and either freezes things or is 10 degrees, i'm constantly checking and tweaking but there's no middle ground, so that might be almost £1800 of medication ruined. which is extremely distressing.

@Merano we've always used icsi bc of low morphology. @lemons44 my relative's dp had azoospermia actually, but total. my own dp has been told to abstain for only 12ish hours before giving his next sample. his numbers are actually good, its just that maybe they're poor quality.
anyway, the doc did agree it might be male factor but wants my next cycle to confirm before we act on it. my dp is very healthy i think, we've been off alcohol for about 1.5 years, both take lots of vits and were both veggie till v recently when i learned i (and therefore he must be too) was deficient in protein (despite all the beans and pulses!) he runs but doesn't cycle, doesn't take hot baths and doesn't have tight pants. He is generally absolutely roasting though and I wonder if his temp is a problem. Obvs its normal for him but he's like a furnace compared to me!

@Nosejug that sounds stressful. Could you look into getting one of those mini fridges (I think they can be around 50 quid) to help in the interim?

Hey it sounds like it could be male factor.
has your partner had a DNA fragmentation test done? We always had really good nos on day 3 but on day 5 they’d have either arrested or slowed down. Last round which resulted in our son on day 3 we had 12 embryos still going all on grade 1-2 then day 5 we had one little 4Bb that became our little boy. My partner has severe MFI and high DNA fragmentation which results in slow growing embryos and failure to implant. Good luck for the future!