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Infertility

Our Infertility Support forum is a space to connect with others in the same position, discuss causes, treatment and IVF, and share infertility stories of hope and success.

Frustrated after one year of IVF... and see the most unqualified people becoming parents...

8 replies

kiaraluna · 17/06/2024 10:06

I know it's sound terrible if I say I can't feel happy for people who're getting pregnant, but sometimes it just feels so unfair... like if it's something that's sent by God to people who are worth it, or like somebody say that babies choose their parents from haven... why are some people who're not that good or not even able to take care of themselves get pregnant so easily...?

I know nothing I'm writing here now is rational... I'm just getting emotional and frustrated and venting... But is there anyone out there who may feel and think the same sometimes?

I'm 38.5 now and I've been undergoing IVF treatments for almost a year now. Last August I had my first implantation, got pregnant but miscarried at around 5 weeks.. I took a rest for a few months, then started over again since I had no more embryos left. I have very low AMH and I can only get 1 to 2 eggs on each retrieval. So I decided to have several more egg retrievals to collect more embryos before my next implantation. After 4 more egg retrievals, I finally have collected 6 D3 embryos - 4 are frozen now and 2 were just implanted (but it's not looking good since this Thursday would be the "result day" but urine tests still keep showing negative these few days).

Actually, after the last miscarriage, I accepted the fact that it's not going to be easy for me, and I'm prepared to fail. Not to mention I also just found out I have "immune system problem", meaning my immune system would attack my embryos, thinking that they're "alien" and harmful to my body. I have since started treatments (taking more pills and injections) to fix this problem before and after the implantation. But I know this problem is making my situation worse than what it already was - while I don't have many chances left due to the lack of eggs, my body itself is killing these very precious embryos that I have left.

I'm in a whatsapp group with other patients of my IVF clinic. It's like a support group where we share experience, ask and answer questions, help each other etc. I know many other women who're in similar or even worse situation than mine. I really respect their strength and determination, and I truly wish them success very soon. But there are always people who're so much less prepared, who have no idea what they're doing or signed up for, who keep asking stupid questions which they should have known the answers with a little bit research or if they've listened carefully to what the doctor/nurses said. And even when you're kind and patient enough to answer all their questions, they're never thankful. But they're always the one who succeeded after just the 1st try. And then they'll start whining about how uncomfortable and hard it's to be pregnant...

Recently, there was this woman who just started her first treatment, and she keeps updating her status after each step (actually no one needs to know, we're all doing the same thing... if you don't have a question to ask/valuable experience to share, you should just keep quiet!). She kept whining about the many medicines and injections that she had to take each day, and said that it's such a trouble to remember to take them on time. It's like she doesn't even know she can use the calendar and alarm clock on her phone to mark down and remind herself of important tasks (while I never need any reminder cos I cannot forget things that are so important to me... it could be my future baby!). She also whined about how difficult and painful it's to take the injections, and said that she couldn't do it by herself but blamed her husband for hurting her/making her bleed (I don't know... but I've taking all the jabs by myself since day one, and I never complained about the pain because I signed up for this myself, I knew it's gonna hurt. And people having immune problems have to take even more jabs which are much more painful than those ovulation stimulating jabs, and we never whine like her).

Then, she whined about the pain after retrieving 17 eggs, and said that she couldn't stop crying after the surgery. She said that she couldn't bear the pain of childbirth if just egg retrieval can be this painful. I wonder why she even tried to get pregnant by paying for expensive IVF in the first place if she cannot even bear just a little pain. And I don't know if she's really that stupid or she's just pretending, she said that she's upset because she retrieved "only" 17 eggs - when it's actually a quite impressive number. Then people had to tell her that she's actually doing very good, because many of us are only retrieving a few eggs each time. That's when she's happy and satisfied. And when she later got 14 D5 embryos with 4AA, 4AB gradings, she "whined" about it again and asked if those are bad gradings. How on earth can "A" and "B" be bad grades? She said she had look it up on the internet but couldn't understand what those gradings mean (any adult with basic IQ should be able to understand the simple grading definitions). Then, people had to tell her that she's doing very well with the best graded D5 embryos, good enough for her to give birth to a whole football team. Then, she's happy, while at the same time, there're other people having very few eggs and embryos with bad gradings; there're people who didn't succeed after implantation or even undergoing miscarriage. But there she is, kept humble-bragging her good results.

I knew for sure that she will succeed in just one go - and then there she is, showing photos of her positive pregnancy tests and HCG levels and asked if that means she's pregnant. I mean, do you really have to ask? I mean, if she's been acting like a normal person, I'd feel happy for her. But the problem is, she clearly isn't a normal person, and she isn't ready (both physically and mentally) to be a mum. She whined about every little thing, and she couldn't do the most simple task on her own. And the questions she asked... it's either she's extremely stupid or she's intentionally humble-bragging... But while she's in the group, she should know there're many people who have much harder journey and are still struggling, facing disappointments every day... Only if she has a little empathy, she could have tuned down a bit on her bragging, keep the good news and the ultrasound photos of her twins that she just shared today between she and her husband, rather than sharing them around on the group, having everyone congratulate her on her each and every winning stage/triumph, while some of us may be having a very bad time with failed attempts.

Over the past year, I've seen people around me getting pregnant, giving birth... some of them got pregnant by accident, some of them "bragged" about how they still went on trips or played water slide when they were 5-month pregnant. They didn't seem to treasure or know how lucky they're when they got pregnant so easily and didn't miscarry even when they did some dangerous acts during pregnancy. But for us, we could lose the baby even when we're super careful and alert and refrain ourselves from doing anything that may harm the baby, even if that means we lost many of the fun and freedom to do/eat/drink things that we want to.

If I didn't miscarry last time, I should have given birth to my first child by now. I tried not to look back and think about all the "ifs"... but recently when I saw my "new" neighbor carrying her newborn, I realised that she actually got pregnant around the same time I did, difference is she's now holding her baby while I'm still mourning the lost of mine and trying in vain.

I called her my "new" neighbor but she has moved here about a year ago, and since then I've been having quite a bad time. First, her husband and her are very impolite and inconsiderate. I greeted them the first few times I met them but they never greeted back. When they moved furniture to their new home, they let the workers make a mess in the corridors and lift lobby, covering the floors and our door carpets with dirt and dust, while they could at least give their neighbors a heads-up so that we could take our carpets always first. They also placed a piece of talismanic script (yellow piece of paper with red handwriting on it) on their door facing mine, which was a very inappropriate thing to do (though they had removed it after a few months), because it's kind of like while protecting their home with the taoist spell, they're reflecting/transferring the bad energies/spirits to mine. One time the husband knocked on my door to ask me some questions regarding water pipes, I opened up my door to talk to him knowing that he's my new neighbor. But the next day when I knocked on his door to give him the answer, he didn't open his door until after 2 to 3 min (they also like to keep postman and courier waiting for minutes while they're at home all the time), and when he did answer the door he only opened a crack like I was some kind of dangerous intruder... and he didn't even thank me after I gave him the answer. They also later on broke my water pipe when they were fixing theirs, and never apologized. They didn't put their trash into the shared rubbish bin on our floor, but instead just left them right next to the bin (perhaps they didn't want to touch the bin). They only started to put them inside the bin after I put up a written sign on the wall. Both of them somehow don't need to go to work, and for a while they spent a lot of time at home partying, singing karaoke... their guests didn't leave until 2am, always making lots of noises... I really hate them to my guts, but now what? They just welcomed their newborn now. Can selfish and inconsiderate and rude people like them be good parents? I doubt. But here they are, becoming mum and dad...

I'm been keeping my head up and staying positive for almost a year now, working very hard on my IVF journey without whining a bit. But sometimes I just feel so hopeless when God doesn't seem to spare a tiny bit of luck to me, or to all the other strong women who've endured so much loss and pain but still keep trying. All the luck just goes to people who don't seem to deserve it. Why?

OP posts:
Daisylookslost · 19/06/2024 20:00

That's a really good question! I don’t know. But it does seem to be the case doesn’t it.

I'm sorry for your situation, you are being very stoic about it and obviously doing everything within your power to realise your dream of becoming a parent.

Your neighbours sound like idiots and that woman on your group too! Can you come off the group for a bit? Pay your neighbours less attention? Get an evil eye on your door?

Their child will be grown before long, and who knows you may have a beautiful baby by then. Stranger things have happened.

I do think comparison can be the thief of joy and when you are trying to conceive inevitably everyone around you is pregnant or has a young baby irrespective of their suitability for parenthood.

Wishing you a nice evening x

CharlotteYorkMacDougal · 20/06/2024 12:33

Sorry to hear you’re having a hard time Flowers
If you’re looking for support and solidarity you might find the ‘Infertility’ subreddit to be a better fit for you than the WhatsApp group you mentioned - they ban all mention of ongoing pregnancy, living children etc. Most posters are American and it’s probably not right for everyone but I’ve found it to be a supportive space, especially for people who have been trying for a long time or needed multiple rounds of IVF.

kiaraluna · 21/06/2024 05:46

Daisylookslost · 19/06/2024 20:00

That's a really good question! I don’t know. But it does seem to be the case doesn’t it.

I'm sorry for your situation, you are being very stoic about it and obviously doing everything within your power to realise your dream of becoming a parent.

Your neighbours sound like idiots and that woman on your group too! Can you come off the group for a bit? Pay your neighbours less attention? Get an evil eye on your door?

Their child will be grown before long, and who knows you may have a beautiful baby by then. Stranger things have happened.

I do think comparison can be the thief of joy and when you are trying to conceive inevitably everyone around you is pregnant or has a young baby irrespective of their suitability for parenthood.

Wishing you a nice evening x

Thanks for your kind words, while I was obviously losing my mind when I wrote my original post...

I'd better stop comparing and paying attention to others, and focus on myself instead. (trying not to be triggered by neighbours' baby crying too...)

Yesterday was the "result day" of my implantation, and it's an official "failed". Now I actually feel better because I don't have to hopelessly wish for miracle. I can leave this behind and focus on my next implantation.

The group actually has some very useful information and experiences shared time by time. But whenever I come across people whining or bragging, I'd immediately mute it for 8 hours and try to read only messages with useful information. I'll try not to be affected by people saying things that may trigger me... cos I really can't avoid them 100%, I can only learn how not to react to them...

Thank you again and I will keep calm and move on~

OP posts:
Olivie12 · 24/06/2024 06:44

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Unfortunately, I know the feeling too well. I've been now 5.5 years struggling with infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss. In an odd way, you're lucky to have found out about your immune issues so soon into your journey. In my case, and going with fertility specialists since the start of those 5.5 years, it took like 4.5 years for someone to recommend Reproductive immunology. Have a few issues too and every try has lots and lots of injections and medicines.

Anyway, I agree that it's "unfair " some people get pregnant too easily and hate that they are just whining or bragging at how easy it was for them. In particular older women who get pregnant after 40, naturally and very fast after starting TTC. They are incredibly lucky and won't acknowledge it. I was much younger when I started TTC.

I stopped Social Media to help me cope, I was struggling with all those pregnancy announcements.

That women on what's app can't be that stupid, she's just bragging. Must be one of those persons who need constant reassurance. I would block her. Your neighbours are weird as well.

There's a FB group called "Reproductive immunology Support", it will help you learn of other medicines and cases.

Are you consulting with a Reproductive Immunologist? That's the best you could do to help your case.

Best of luck!

kiaraluna · 24/06/2024 11:02

Olivie12 · 24/06/2024 06:44

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Unfortunately, I know the feeling too well. I've been now 5.5 years struggling with infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss. In an odd way, you're lucky to have found out about your immune issues so soon into your journey. In my case, and going with fertility specialists since the start of those 5.5 years, it took like 4.5 years for someone to recommend Reproductive immunology. Have a few issues too and every try has lots and lots of injections and medicines.

Anyway, I agree that it's "unfair " some people get pregnant too easily and hate that they are just whining or bragging at how easy it was for them. In particular older women who get pregnant after 40, naturally and very fast after starting TTC. They are incredibly lucky and won't acknowledge it. I was much younger when I started TTC.

I stopped Social Media to help me cope, I was struggling with all those pregnancy announcements.

That women on what's app can't be that stupid, she's just bragging. Must be one of those persons who need constant reassurance. I would block her. Your neighbours are weird as well.

There's a FB group called "Reproductive immunology Support", it will help you learn of other medicines and cases.

Are you consulting with a Reproductive Immunologist? That's the best you could do to help your case.

Best of luck!

I'm sorry to hear about your experience too... 5.5 years.. I think I'd have given up so much earlier already... I don't think I'm strong enough to endure so much pain and loss... You're so resilient! And what's your immune issue? Mine is Lupus Anti-coagulant, and my NK cell, B cell, TNF are almost over normal. I also just got some more blood test results, showing I'm low in C3, C4, and high in C1Q (I have to wait until I fly to Taiwan next month to see my Reproductive Immunologist to find out what these actually mean). It just seems there are so many problems (and there are still some items I haven't checked yet)... Most cases I heard are just 1 or 2 problems but it seems I'm hitting all the jackpots but in a bad way... Not to say LA is a complicated issue which could cause many problems even during pregnancy, and in where I live (Hong Kong), there're no Reproductive Immunologists, which means even if I got pregnant, I'd have to stay in Taiwan to make sure my situation will be well taken care of... Of course it's too early to think about all these now, but it's just a very difficult path ahead that I can foresee...

Yes, in a way I'm lucky to find out I have immune issue so early on. And it's actually because I'm on that whatsapp group, where I got information about reproductive immunology from other IVF patients. It's from other people's experiences that I thought it'd be better for me to check if I have immune issues asap, while my IVF doctor actually didn't think I had to worry about this because I didn't have recurrent miscarriage (yet). People usually only start to check on this after multiple implantation failures or miscarriages. So I'd say I'm lucky that I knew about it and have a check-up so soon..

But of course sadly, there're people on the group who're not helpful at all. I've blocked the woman I mentioned but sadly it only stops her from sending direct messages to me, I can still see her messages on the group. But now I've mute the chat for a week, I'd rather miss out on some useful info than being triggered while I'm feeling defeated recently...

And I found myself also distancing from friends who have kids... because most of them don't understand that it could be so difficult for some people to conceive, and just thought that you're weak or not trying hard enough..

Thank you for recommending the FB group, I've just joined, waiting for approval.

Best of luck to you too. Do share your immune issue/journey if you feel comfortable to share. I'm feeling quite lost right now..

OP posts:
Olivie12 · 25/06/2024 13:14

kiaraluna · 24/06/2024 11:02

I'm sorry to hear about your experience too... 5.5 years.. I think I'd have given up so much earlier already... I don't think I'm strong enough to endure so much pain and loss... You're so resilient! And what's your immune issue? Mine is Lupus Anti-coagulant, and my NK cell, B cell, TNF are almost over normal. I also just got some more blood test results, showing I'm low in C3, C4, and high in C1Q (I have to wait until I fly to Taiwan next month to see my Reproductive Immunologist to find out what these actually mean). It just seems there are so many problems (and there are still some items I haven't checked yet)... Most cases I heard are just 1 or 2 problems but it seems I'm hitting all the jackpots but in a bad way... Not to say LA is a complicated issue which could cause many problems even during pregnancy, and in where I live (Hong Kong), there're no Reproductive Immunologists, which means even if I got pregnant, I'd have to stay in Taiwan to make sure my situation will be well taken care of... Of course it's too early to think about all these now, but it's just a very difficult path ahead that I can foresee...

Yes, in a way I'm lucky to find out I have immune issue so early on. And it's actually because I'm on that whatsapp group, where I got information about reproductive immunology from other IVF patients. It's from other people's experiences that I thought it'd be better for me to check if I have immune issues asap, while my IVF doctor actually didn't think I had to worry about this because I didn't have recurrent miscarriage (yet). People usually only start to check on this after multiple implantation failures or miscarriages. So I'd say I'm lucky that I knew about it and have a check-up so soon..

But of course sadly, there're people on the group who're not helpful at all. I've blocked the woman I mentioned but sadly it only stops her from sending direct messages to me, I can still see her messages on the group. But now I've mute the chat for a week, I'd rather miss out on some useful info than being triggered while I'm feeling defeated recently...

And I found myself also distancing from friends who have kids... because most of them don't understand that it could be so difficult for some people to conceive, and just thought that you're weak or not trying hard enough..

Thank you for recommending the FB group, I've just joined, waiting for approval.

Best of luck to you too. Do share your immune issue/journey if you feel comfortable to share. I'm feeling quite lost right now..

Edited

I just can't see myself quitting without a baby and as long as I have the funding (thanks God because it's so expensive) we will keep trying. I'm on my 4th IVF clinic. In every clinic we would see some improvement.

I understand your frustrations, I even had to distance myself from my best friend cause she was much older than me (over 40), got pregnant with 2 months of trying and then calls me for me to interpret whether her pregnancy test is showing she's pregnant or not. As if it's hard to know if it's positive, here all tests come with a booklet with instructions, plus instructions printed on the box. She knows my full story. Very insensitive. I didn't stop talking to her then but shortly after, I knew I wouldn't be able to hear her constantly talk about her pregnancy.

I have T cell and NK cells issues. My numbers are not crazy high, but still cause miscarriages of healthy embryos. I have a new protocol for next time I fall pregnant.

It's very hard for you not having any RI in your own country. My protocol doesn't involve any IVIG or intralipids, it's mainly pills and blood thinners . Hopefully your protocol is similar so you can continue the treatment from home. My RI is in a different city,but in the same country. All appointments are on the phone, I get the blood tests before the appointment and at appointment time he gives me a protocol based on the bloods. Maybe you could do some blood tests in your country and send the results to the doctor.

Even though your list of diagnosis is long, maybe the treatment is the same medicine. I take like 6-7 medicines plus supplements but most medicines will help both conditions.

You could send me a direct message anytime you want to chat or if feel bad. I'm in Australia, here we have 3 RI's if you run out of options over there you could try here.

kiaraluna · 04/07/2024 09:46

Olivie12 · 25/06/2024 13:14

I just can't see myself quitting without a baby and as long as I have the funding (thanks God because it's so expensive) we will keep trying. I'm on my 4th IVF clinic. In every clinic we would see some improvement.

I understand your frustrations, I even had to distance myself from my best friend cause she was much older than me (over 40), got pregnant with 2 months of trying and then calls me for me to interpret whether her pregnancy test is showing she's pregnant or not. As if it's hard to know if it's positive, here all tests come with a booklet with instructions, plus instructions printed on the box. She knows my full story. Very insensitive. I didn't stop talking to her then but shortly after, I knew I wouldn't be able to hear her constantly talk about her pregnancy.

I have T cell and NK cells issues. My numbers are not crazy high, but still cause miscarriages of healthy embryos. I have a new protocol for next time I fall pregnant.

It's very hard for you not having any RI in your own country. My protocol doesn't involve any IVIG or intralipids, it's mainly pills and blood thinners . Hopefully your protocol is similar so you can continue the treatment from home. My RI is in a different city,but in the same country. All appointments are on the phone, I get the blood tests before the appointment and at appointment time he gives me a protocol based on the bloods. Maybe you could do some blood tests in your country and send the results to the doctor.

Even though your list of diagnosis is long, maybe the treatment is the same medicine. I take like 6-7 medicines plus supplements but most medicines will help both conditions.

You could send me a direct message anytime you want to chat or if feel bad. I'm in Australia, here we have 3 RI's if you run out of options over there you could try here.

I don't know when I would/should give up... At first I thought I'd give myself 3 chances, mainly because it costs HKD150000 (ard AUD28000+) for one round of IVF when we originally almost started the treatment here in Hong Kong, but then we decided to do it in Taiwan where it costs only 1/3 of HK's price. So my husband and I thought that we can try 3 times in Taiwan with the "original budget". But then I ended up needing to do multiple retrievals after the 1st loss. The money we've spent on multiple retrievals, flight tickets and accommodation have long surpassed that "original budget", but we're not stopping🤑It's just like going down a rabbit hole, not knowing when and where to stop... Now I'm thinking I'd stop when I turn 40, which is 1.5 years from now. I mean, yes we could afford it but there has to be an end... but sometimes I also think I shouldn't give myself a limit or deadline...

Your friend sound terrible. There's no way any grown-a** adult couldn't understand how a pregnancy test work. Every grown woman knows how it works even without looking at the instruction booklet. I really don't understand the mentality of people like your friend, or the woman I mentioned in the whatsapp group, or my "friend" whom I also stopped contacting for a few years now, who likes to humble-brag and always communicates in a passive aggressive way. I cut ties with her for some other reasons, but before that, she also acted so pretentious or attention-seeking about her pregnancy. She wanted to make it like a huge piece of news that everyone should be interested to know. She kept throwing hints to lead you to ask her about her pregnancy, while pretended like she didn't want to talk about it because she wanted to make it look like she wasn't eager to become a mother, like she said it's unplanned and she didn't even try (but all I know is for years she's been seeing Chinese doctor, taking lots of body check and tests... probably because she was trying to conceive). She acted this way when she was getting married too, saying that she didn't want it (but she has it anyway!). It was annoying enough to see her trying to humble-brag about her pregnancy (and lying about the fact that she's been TTC for years) when I wasn't even interested in having a baby back then. I'm glad I cut ties with her before my TTC journey because she'd most probably make things worse for me with her superior attitude and insensitivity.

OP posts:
kiaraluna · 04/07/2024 10:27

Olivie12 · 25/06/2024 13:14

I just can't see myself quitting without a baby and as long as I have the funding (thanks God because it's so expensive) we will keep trying. I'm on my 4th IVF clinic. In every clinic we would see some improvement.

I understand your frustrations, I even had to distance myself from my best friend cause she was much older than me (over 40), got pregnant with 2 months of trying and then calls me for me to interpret whether her pregnancy test is showing she's pregnant or not. As if it's hard to know if it's positive, here all tests come with a booklet with instructions, plus instructions printed on the box. She knows my full story. Very insensitive. I didn't stop talking to her then but shortly after, I knew I wouldn't be able to hear her constantly talk about her pregnancy.

I have T cell and NK cells issues. My numbers are not crazy high, but still cause miscarriages of healthy embryos. I have a new protocol for next time I fall pregnant.

It's very hard for you not having any RI in your own country. My protocol doesn't involve any IVIG or intralipids, it's mainly pills and blood thinners . Hopefully your protocol is similar so you can continue the treatment from home. My RI is in a different city,but in the same country. All appointments are on the phone, I get the blood tests before the appointment and at appointment time he gives me a protocol based on the bloods. Maybe you could do some blood tests in your country and send the results to the doctor.

Even though your list of diagnosis is long, maybe the treatment is the same medicine. I take like 6-7 medicines plus supplements but most medicines will help both conditions.

You could send me a direct message anytime you want to chat or if feel bad. I'm in Australia, here we have 3 RI's if you run out of options over there you could try here.

I guess T cell and NK cells issues are relatively less complicated issues, as my RI said their influence on pregnancy are relatively low (because like you, my numbers are not crazy high). But of course there're still chances that they will cause problems during pregnancy, and so medication and follow-ups are definitely needed. (Perhaps he said that because in my case I have lupus anticoagulant and he said this is what I should really worry about compared to other things).

I'm also taking blood thinners and plaquenil. Had intralipids and Arixtra injections for my previous transfer. My RI said that I don't need IVIG, I hope so because it'd be much more costly if I need it (the cost for the injection itself and multiple travels to Taiwan... I hope not). But luckily it's only a 1.5hr flight between HK and Taiwan. And even for blood tests, I'd rather do it in Taiwan because it's much cheaper there (Taiwan's prices are 1/4 of HK's), and there are some items that the labs here in HK are not able to test. It's just that HK is so lag behind in both reproductive endocrinology and reproductive immunology. There are no RI here, not even RE. IVF here are performed by O&G Doctors, they're not RE, they don't have the specialised knowledge. So it's ridiculous they charge so much higher than Taiwan (indeed one reason is that HK is one of the most expensive cities, but still, many things here are so overpriced because everything is so commercial and people have to squeeze every penny). I really hate it here. And I had the worst and most inhumane experience during my last miscarriage at the public hospital here. So if I'm fortunately pregnant and have to stay in Taiwan to play safe (especially with my immune issues), I would.

Where do you live in Australia? I love your country! My aunt and uncle have been living in Sydney for almost 30 years. And 10 years ago, I spent one year travelling around Australia with a working holiday visa. Best year of my life! It's an 8-hour flight from here to Australia, so it's still relatively close. But luckily I still have plenty of options of RI in Taiwan. I hope things will work out for both of us very soon!

Thank you for offering to me to chat through direct message, I definitely will 😆I'll fly to Taiwan again next week to see my RI, to discuss further on my immune protocol and transfer plan. I may also do some more rounds of retrievals while waiting for my next transfer, and planning to do it in another clinic... Talk later, and feel free to message me to talk about your TTC journey and share experience. 🤗

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