Anyone's with KIND IVF/ICSI?

[Whxy66]

Hi - found the forum when I started to look into IVF and am so glad I did as it is really helpful to read other's experiences and get the feeling that I am not alone!

Wonder if anyone else is or has been through KIND IVF/ICSI and what the experiences are. And is anyone also starting around the same time - I did my first injection yesterday half excited and half anxious.

A bit of background:
I am 32, AMH 20.8 pmol/L, AFC 30
Our infertility is mainly MF, very low motility and morphology
We are going to have ICSI

Hey 🫶🏽

We have just had ICSI, had double embryo transfer on the 24th Jan. OTD Monday.

The cycle itself wasnt too bad for me, bloating is the only major side effect! Its this wait between transfer and test thats getting to me the most......nail biting!!

Good luck 🍀

@2022TTCBaby1 Thank you for sharing! ❤️

Tho I am not there yet but I can imagine how anxious that could be, fingers crossed for you that it will be positive news!!

Do you mind me asking what was the result of egg collection? I am slightly worried that there won't be enough as I was put on a lower dosage due to the AFC but then I am also hoping I don't get overstimulated. I know this is very much depending on individual cases - don't know what to expect as it is our 1st round.

Good luck to you too!

@Whxy66 we did Kind IVF last year and honestly couldn't find a lot of info about it as the program is fairly new.

I was concerned too about low dosing but from what I've read the goal is quality not quantity - although at one point my nurse definitely seemed disappointed with my response!

But to summarise we collected 8 eggs, 5 fertilised and got 3 day five good quality embryos.

We did 1 fresh transfer and thankfully I am now almost 20 weeks 🥳

If you have any questions about KIND let me know, there's irritatingly hardly any info out there! sprinkling baby dust your way! ✨✨✨✨

Thank you! I hope for some good news too.

Of couse not! I will start from the beginning haha

Im 31, 32 next month. We have ttc for over 2 years now. I have PCOS and my partner sometimes has low sperm count. Some samples hes been well over the minimum and some hes been under. ICSI was decided on the day as sample wasnt very high.

This was our first round too, they collected 7 eggs but only 4 were mature enough to use. I expected this though the nurses told me 3 follices were on the smaller size but may grow in time (which they didnt). 3 of these 4 embryos fertilised. All 3 made it to day 5 but were not the best quality. We had 5bc, 4bc and a 5cc.

Our clinic does not freeze anything under a b grade this is why we had the double transfer. We left the cc until day 6 to see if it would get better overnight to freeze but unfortunately wasnt the case.

Thank you both ladies @JazBag @2022TTCBaby1 !Honestly, it made me feel much better just to know someone who's in the same boat and lived the experience! And also knowing others' cases made me feel less "lost".

@JazBag I can imagine it must have been really difficult with pretty much no one to ask. You were very brave to go along with it and I am so happy it worked out for you!! Hope everything goes smoothly from here too!

@2022TTCBaby1 OMG My bday is next month as well haha so I'll be 33 then. I'll find out more about how I respond to the medication next week. What a learning curve when you are on this!

Have a lovely weekend both!!

Hi all, just jumping on this thread to follow it really, I can't add much yet as we have not yet really begun, but we have our consultation with Kind IVF week after next! I have my transV scan and AMH blood test in a few days, I will come back with the results when I get them.

Background;
I'm 32, we have MFI. Partner has very low count plus low motility etc etc. First count was about 1.5 million p/ml and second count was 2.5 million p/ml :( They say anything below 16 mill is infertility-range. I think the progressive motility was around 6% first count then 20% second count.... Anything below 25% is again 'infertility land'. The morphology (normal form) couldn't even be counted as 'there wasn't enough sperm to tell'. ? I think this is quite common with very low numbers, they can't perform this test.

As far as I know I have no fertility issue but we'll find out this week after my AMH test and scans.

We're wondering whether to go with Kind IVF, or to instead go abroad (europe, looking at Greece) for 'full' IVF. Both look around the same price when all is added in (flights etc etc) (but Kind gets less eggs???). I'm leaning towards abroad for 'full' IVF so we have a higher chance of having embryos to freeze for a 2nd cycle if the first fails (or a sibling?).... Seems worth it, if it's the same price as Kind... but then I'm wondering about the 'quality over quantity' thing....!

Also wondering whether we should pay extra for DNA testing of the sperm in case there's further issues. I don't think KIND offer this. Abroad it appears you might be able to get genetic tests done for around 350 euros extra....

Anyway.... there is so much to learn it's crazy. Grateful there's other people posting about Kind as I could not find many reviews :) So this is a great source. Best wishes to all, and I think I'll back with updates too.

@bigcatbigcat Hiiii - first I just want to say GOOD LUCK no matter what you decide!

I am definitely going to look into going abroad, our thinking is to try KIND first as we've never done IVF and I am clueless about the process, how am I going to react to it etc, this is mostly price-wise because it is just too expensive otherwise! and if we fail we need to find another option, could be access fertility package or doing it abroad. So would be great to hear your updates!

I think we have a similar situation here with MF. My partner has a normal sperm count but really low motility and in the last analysis they cannot find normal form sperms so morphology is again not great. The doctor explained to us that once they "prep" the sperm sample they should be able to find some because his count is still normal (which I am not entirely sure what it means). TBH I am more concerned we won't have enough quality sperm than egg!

I just had my first scan on day 6 of stims, the dosage they prescribed before was really low at 112.5iu Bemfola. I believe they can only do 112.5 or 150 so they are increasing my dosage from today and see how it goes on Friday. Though it says nurse-led the scan today was done by a consultant.

I will come back with more updates as I progress and finger cross for all of us for good news!

Whxy66 ... I'm new here and can't see how to tag someone, so hope you see this ! Thanks so much, will be following your journey with Kind if okay, sounds like our situations are rather similar and you're just ahead the journey than us!

Any ideas what has caused your partner's sperm issues? We have no idea. I've not heard of someone with normal count but no normal forms found before, but I guess there's all combinations of issues out there! Just wish we could know why...... D:

You say ''I believe they can only do 112.5 or 150 Bemfola'. Is that quite low compared to normal IVF , do you know? I have no idea about any of the drugs or doses yet, that learning's still ahead of me at this point.

2022TTCBaby1 - I have a question if you see this... 'double transfer' ... does that mean they put two embryos in you at once? I thought they can't do this in the UK anymore?

One other thing that makes me not keen on Kind is they don't do FET so any frozen embryos would be transferred by Londons Women Clinic apparently and the cost seems quite high... I think they said nearly £2,500 .... whereas a FET in Europe seems more around £800 (although that doesn't include meds apparently - I don't know what meds are required for a FET though...💁).

@bigcatbigcat they will only transfer 2 embryos if they believe this is your best chance of conceiving. As i had 3 low quality embryos and that wouldnt be viable to freeze they chose to transfer 2 to give me the best shot. Although this failed :(

You can choose to do a FET with any clinic, Kind IVF just recommend LWC as they are partners. I believe....

@bigcatbigcat Hi I think the tag didn't but I followed the thread so I can see it! (Start the tagging with a "@" then you will be able to see the IDs who've commented on this :)

No, we don't know and it is the frustrating part. My partner has a very healthy lifestyle, regular exercise, minimal drinking, no smoking and no injuries before. We did the investigation first with NHS and it was not the best experience not to mention how long it took. They didn't seem to care much about men's problems (Infertifility aside, we also want to know that there's nothing to worry about regarding general health). The gynaecologist that I got referred to said that getting to the urologist in the region would take a long time and she said in her experience she saw very few cases in the result could be improved significantly ( tho I heard some people do get an improvement over time) so they just dropped the investigation.

We did run a DNA fragmentation test before and that was fine so thank god! And now we tried to get referred to a urologist while trying IVF because I don't know how long the wait is. So we'll see about that. Sometimes I felt there's so much focus on women and women only on fertility which should be changed.

As for the dosage, everyone's case is different but 112.5 feels low compared to others I read. And if you need more than 150 they cannot do it as they have a standard protocol. I think it is the quality over quantity philosophy again! That is probably the other reason that attracted me to being more "natural" and less aggressive to my body. I found this article shared a bit of thoughts on the dosage https://www.theivfjourney.com/blog/the-right-dose-of-fsh-for-an-ivf-cycle/. Guess the best is to trust your doctor and your body.

Let me know if there are more questions! I am going for my 2nd scan tmr and potentially have the egg collection on Valentine's day (how romantic is that!)

@2022TTCBaby1 Hi I am sorry that it didn't work this time - hope you are getting good rest over it. Sending lots of hugs!

#2022TTCBaby1 , my sympathies that your FET didn’t work this time 😞 I wish you every luck for the future tries!!

#Whxy66 - yes I’ve heard they don’t investigate MFI and the reason being it’s usually mostly un-treatable anyway. Ugh…. Can I ask how much your DNA fragmentation cost and who did it for you? Does it take long?

we have been advised for my partner to have pre genetic testing for certain things, partly because they say his extrnemely low sperm count could point to a genetic issue which they’d want to avoid passing on? So we’re looking into prices for this now too. All getting so expensive.

did you have your egg collection today then?!! Updates if so !!

We had results from my scan and AMH test. Not the best news unfortunately. I have very high AMH levels (41) and abnormally large number of follicles… so basically I have what’s called ‘polycystic ovaries ‘ …!! This is not to be confused with ‘polycystic ovary syndrome’ , which (after some research) I now know is a different thing. I have NONE of the symptoms of PCOS and therefore don’t have that hormonal problem , and this means my ‘polycystic ovaries’ are not a fertility issue for me as such, and (if I had a partner with normal sperm) I should conceive no issue. Apparently up to 1/3 women have ‘polycystic ovaries’ (NOT PCOS which is rarer), but most women will never know as they’d never have a scan to reveal it. It’s actually fairly normal as I now understand.

HOWEVER, what it DOES mean is we’re not eligible for Kind ivf :-(. As I don’t fit their criteria of being a ‘Simple’ case with a AMH level of 30 or under. This means our only hope now is to go to Czech Republic or somewhere (we may have chosen Prague) where we can afford full normal IVF.

It also means I’m unlikely to have egg transfer in the same cycle as egg collection , as my ovaries are likely to produce a ton of eggs, thus neeeding a month to recover. It also means I’m at a much higher risk of ovarian hyper stimulation , so I will need more careful med dosing and closer monitoring during the meds. Hopefully at least my meds will be cheaper as I won’t need much ahha. This means I can’t inject the meds at home before flying to Prague. … i will have to spend the entire process in Prague so they can monitor me closely on the meds …

the upside is I’m quite likely to retrieve a high number of eggs. Silver linings i guess.

it’s a shame as I was warming to the idea of Kind and being able to do it more simply in the uk etc.

but hey Ho! More complications !

best of luck and keep us updated on your journey please !! 😀

@bigcatbigcat Hi how are you doing? sorry for the delay in updating - I was waiting for the follow-up call with the doctor which was today.

In summary, KIND didn't work for me. I just had the cycle cancelled on Monday due to my low response to the stimulation, I've only got one large follicle in the last scan which the doctor said was surprising but it happens - like a lot of other things hard to explain in the fertility journey which is a bit frustrating. Guess the upside is that I failed fast in this round and I didn't go through the whole journey to find out! Doctor suggested doubling the amount and changing drugs next round which means a higher risk of OHSS and potentially not doing a fresh transfer, considering my AMH level. But I guess you never know until you're put on those drugs and see.

Now I am also looking at options of either taking access fertility package or going abroad. Also considering Czech! I scheduled a call with Reprofit in Brno in early March, which clinic are you considering?

The DNA fragmentation test was done in my home country while we visited family so sorry cannot help with that:(. We did that together with a semen analysis for 90 pounds (I wish they could have the same price here!).

I didn't know PCO before and yes it looks more common than PCOS and not an issue which is great news! You learn as you go. And definitely, the bright side is to have more eggs to use and a higher chance!

Finger-cross for all of us on this journey!

#whxy66 , oh boy, I'm sorry to hear that. There's so many factors all the time that crop up.. all so unpredictable. Makes you marvel how so many (I mean... nearly everyone) can just get pregnant from some simple fun lol... just doesn't seem possible for it to be that easy.........

Did Kind charge you for the whole cycle, I'm guessing you had to pay some but not the whole shabang? I guess you need a higher dose of the meds then!?

That is a shame. I heard about Reprofit but I didn't find them as responsive to my emails as a place called 'Pragua medica'. So we're looking into Pragua medica.

Now that I've had my AMH and scan results, Pragua medica has sent these (and my hormone results (all normal) - which the NHS GP did for me late last year) to their doctor to look at. They also require fT4 and TPO test (?) results, which my NHS GP refused to do for free (since we don't qualify for fertility help from the NHS as my partner already has a son).... (Although my NHS GP did test my thyroid, and other basic background things for free late last year - all normal). So I will also have to find a place to do a fT4 and TPO test in the UK as well and pay for that I guess. That should be all I have outstanding now to know what medications I will need for Prague..? Oh and we also need to pay for a karyotype DNA test for my partner due to a genetic condition in his family :(

Due to my liklihood to get OHSS , I will have to be in Prague from day 7 of cycle until the end, for close monitoring, and likely to need a month break before a FET to let my ovaries recover lol... (Most people can inject the meds at home in the UK before ever flying out, but I can't due to my apparently crazy ovaries, lol).

The price for IVF with ICSI in Pragua Medica is around £2,400, but then medication is on top (apparently £500 - £1,500?), plus a £73 fee for a pre-op exam, and then £200 per year to freeze and store embryos (pretty cheap) (I think that's for up to 4 emrbyos?). Then obviously flights and accommodation. Oh, plus we'll have to pay for the fT4 and TPO test, genetic test for my partner, and I think one scan privately in UK before flying. (Plus I already paid £300 to Kind IVF for the scan and AMH test). So all in all, I'm estimating around £3,500 - £4,800 total in Prague, depending (including flights&accom) (although my accom price is likely to be higher now I know I need to be there longer). They also offer various optional extras at various extra costs, that may or may not help success rates (research seems mixed).

Then Pragua medica charge around £800 for a FET if the first round fails but you had excess good embryos frozen from the 1st round (not including medication - I don't know what meds are required for a FET only?).

All in all, waaaaaaaay cheaper than private IVF in the UK! ......Kind IVF put us in touch with their sister clinic since we weren't eligible for Kind, and the prices were insane, like at least £15,000 once all the extra tests and everything is added in.

Keep us updated : )

Hi @JazBag congratulations on your good news!!! Hope you’ve had a smooth pregnancy so far! I wondered if I could ask you a question pls.
I had 5 good quality day 3 embryos in my last kind / Mild IVF however my clinic asked to push them to day 5, which sadly meant 4 of them did not survive till then / did not grow. I had one good quality day 5 embryo which is now frozen. I wondered if your clinic recommended day 3 transfers over day 5 and what reasoning they gave for it? I am considering for my next cycle to request to transfer two day 3 embryos if we get to that stage - I don’t want to waste good quality day 3 embryos especially as I have a very low AMH.

Hi @CoffeePlease2024

Thanks! We feel incredibly lucky 🥰
Sorry to hear that they didn't make it, it's such a mentally difficult process to go through.

So we collected 8 eggs, 5 fertilised and 3 made it to day five (1 fresh transfer and 2 on ice)

We never had any discussion about day three or day five transfers so my assumption is we lost 2 after the three days. I believe that day five have a stronger chance of taking so maybe that's why they opt for that if possible? I think I would go with their recommendations (as hard as that can be!)

1 frozen from Kind is a great outcome, it only takes one! We were told this is the goal, anymore is just a happy bonus

Are you planning a FET? Best of luck!!

Thanks so much @JazBag that is super helpful :) xxx

@bigcatbigcat Thank you so much for sharing your research on the clinic, sounds reasonably priced and an opportunity for vacation (that's how we treat it if going abroad, though logistically it can be harder but it might be mentally helpful to do it away from work!) Hope it will work out, do you have an idea yet for when you'll start?

Yes, they only charged us for the medication and scan and the rest were refunded. I also asked for a quote from LWC before starting KIND to compare and it is insanely expensive!! especially it is not guaranteed that the first time will work even though that's the wish of every one of us. The frozen transfer will also be pricey if there are more embryos.

On another topic, have you considered Access Fertility Packages? Through Access fertility, 2 multi-cycle would be slightly under 10K with ICSI plus med (unlimited FET) with LWC, it is more manageable. I am kind of debating myself now to choose the ease of having it home or going for all the good things people said about abroad! It is HARD!!

Hi again! Yeh, thought I’d share all my research as it took ages XD.

We probably won’t be able to treat it as a vacation as my partner can probs only get 2 days off work to 'play his part' so i'll probs have to mostly be there on my own😫. but can have a solo vacay lol.. (theyre closed on weekends so he cant do his part on a weekend even)

i did look at Access and also Gaia but i didnt fully understand it. .. with gaia you pay around £3k if it doesnt work and about 10k if it does work? i think? not sure how that plays into the 'multi' or 'single' cycles really. find it confusing.

but 3k if it doesn't work isnt that appealing , since in prague we'd likely pay around 4k total even if it does work

i do worry about being in prague and having OHSS and then having to pay for a hospital stay or something though😑

damn i wish this was all simpler!

i have my ft4 and TPO test booked for next week now with London womens clinic and its £140 for both which was actually the cheapest i could find

keep me updated!!!

Well I don’t believe this and I’m sure something must be up or gonna go wrong but …

I had a BFP yesterday. Another this morning and the line is definitely there , faint ish but there!! In actual shock. This is natural of course , we were just about to pay deposit for a Prague clinic !!

I just am in disbelief. From my partners sperm results it looked like our chance of natural conception was under 2% even if trying for years. His total count was 9mil first time then 5 mil second , but only 2.1 mill p/ml in first test and 1.8mill p/ml in second. Motility was 25% and then 8% , and in both tests there was too few sperm to asses normal forms at all. The tests were May and sept last year. He also tried to conceive for over 3 yrs without success with his ex wife until they eventually had their only child through ivf icsi.

so yeh. I’m in shock and expecting something to go wrong . But yeh!!!!!

@bigcatbigcat congratulations!!!!!!!!!! 🥳

@bigcatbigcat Wow that's amazing news, congratulations and hope everything goes smoothly!!

Thank you thank you! Fully expecting something to go wrong, so not getting hopeful because it will be too crushing... but cannot actually believe we've been given a shot!!