ERA EMMA ALICE testing thread #6

[Gardenlady543]

@Janefx40 @birdbybird @seven201 @Gardenlady543 @patientpatient @MyEasterEggs @thislittlebird @Yuliaaa @Violette22 @2021ivfagain @OrangeBengal @Enfys23 @Loz2467 @DEIVF @Hopeful199 @ER12 @greendress789 @Douchas12111 @Lori2022 @AdviceForJane @Anonbaby @Molls87 @ChickenT2b @GoldenElephant @IVF22 @StillTrying10000 @warrior101 @whatcangowrong @Yaynayokay

Oh yes it really has happened we are onto thread #6.

All are welcome to join us, we started out as people interested in ERA EMMA ALICE but we seem to have had every test available between us.

So if you want to know about the microbiome, reproductive immunology or you just feel your case is complicated and what like minded people to talk to about it you've come to the right place

@Enfys23 glad you have your scan brought forward, I would’ve done the same. It’s no big deal to the clinic but important to you.

@Gardenlady543 sorry you’re feeling everything is going wrong. The more we research, investigate and understand , the more we find. I wish it was more straightforward and I hope it will be going forward.

No major update from me, still in waiting land.
Today I have EWCM on CD10, which is quite early for me. Though I’ve never tried to get pregnant naturally as doing PGT-M, I sometimes track my ovulation in between treatment cycles (just so I can predict period and start of treatment!) and I usually get EWCM and LH surge later. I’m thinking my body is still settling after miscarriage. Hope no major delay to next period so I can get cracking with next stim cycle. If anything it could be earlier due to the above.
I recently listened to a webinar from Igenomix about ‘chaotic’ embryos (>6 chromosome errors) coming back as euploid on re-biopsy and testing (40%) so I’ve asked my clinic to consider this for one of my embryos that was deemed complex abnormal (five mosaic errors). Long shot but we’ll see what they say.

Re: zymot - can those of you who have used it share more? It lists it on the price list and it says it’s £200 but I expected more because, afaik, it’s a sperm sorting technique? That seems fairly inexpensive as things go. My husband has poor sperm quality so I’m interested in if it helped/could help.

@Gardenlady543 sorry you’ve got another wait. There’s always a wait in this game. Meanwhile other people just get on with their lives, it really sucks.

@thislittlebird I am 36 on Thursday! My amh is 17 give or take not sure if that is a factor at all.
I never tested ph until this ttc nightmare so no clue what the ph has been my whole life.
It does give me anxiety though so I’m trying not to test as have a nk biopsy next cycle so will get the microbiome retested after that. it’s like a can of worms isn’t it 🤦‍♀️

@thislittlebird mine runs at 4.5-5, which seems to be on the higher end, I never get it lower than that. Sounds like a few of us run a bit high.

@VenusStarr this is good news that they aren't too worried about the dna fragmentation and you have a plan, I honestly have no idea about male treatments, I've heard about men doing injections etc so there must be a few options.

@Faithhopelove83 I'm not sure about how the labs do these tests, it's all above my head!

Sorry feel really unhelpful!

I have had the worst day, had an important work event, worked myself up for ages. I got triggered by multiple baby conversations and tried to stop myself crying then had an episode of my physical symptoms, the teacher drew attention to it as she was worried, so I said "I'm experiencing episodes of a fast heart rate and it's happening now" and everyone was aware and I just wanted people to stop drawing attention to me, the only girl in the room handed me a note "are you pregnant?" I spent the day with tears in my eyes and this was too much, I broke down and had to leave the room. Managed to come back in after lunch but just felt pathetic. It was too much for me, clearly I need to stay working at home as I have been and I'm not up for these events. Worried about how people will address this with me.

@Gardenlady543

I’m really sorry you’re having a difficult day. I know I had a fast heartbeat but that is when I was anaemic. Sometimes it is easier working from home. You have to do what feels right for you.

I know I’ve been absent for a few days. I was worried about my mum who is now back on blood thinners but had to have a blood transfusion before that as she lost too much blood. I think I’ve caught the virus that my son picked up from my husband. I’m a bit worried as I have to go on immune suppressants end of this month.

Do you know if vagibiom can be used close to the transfer cycle as it contains lactic acid which is what is in canesbalance? With canesbalance it says it can be used in pregnancy but not when trying to conceive.

@thislittlebird I also get issues with ph being over 4.5 very often. I try to avoid sugary food and yeast if I can.

My consultant has said I can use canesflor post transfer but to avoid canesbalance. It seems strange.

@2021ivfagain I used vagibiom at the start of my FET after my period ended, then moved to probiotics without acid in them like flora femme, candesflor, physioflor.

@Gardenlady543 that day sounds horrendous, so sorry. Put yourself first and do what you have to do, whether that’s working from home or not.

@thislittlebird not used Zymot yet but I suggested it to my consultant. He thought it was a good idea to possibly get another blast or two. He recommended it to his cousin who tested its efficacy via before and after comet tests with J Ramsey. It’s £220 at my clinic. As far as I know, sample needs to have at least 1m motile sperm I order to use it.

Thank you @CailinInUK I've worked myself up for ages for this day, thought I could cope by not going to the event before last night and getting DH to drive me there and back and clearly it was too much with all the triggers. I feel like I will be judged for it, but I tried my best :(

@Gardenlady543

I’ve ordered more vagibiom but it won’t be here for 7-14 days but should start period in 2 days. Also need to start metronidazole soon. Do you think I should avoid using vagibiom?

@2021ivfagain I tried not to use it around transfer, as sperm like alkali pH so I didn't know if the embryo would as well, so I just used vagibiom at the beginning of the cycle, the other option is to put in a probiotic and acid product at the same time, I also do this at the start of the cycle, Then I used the probiotics without the acid closer to the transfer, nothing 2 days before and next time nothing 2 days after and then back onto the probiotics after.

@CailinInUK this is the brand i use www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Fitter-Bacterial-Vaginosis-Infection/dp/B096TP2KD2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3BXLLXERRRVZG&keywords=just+fitter&qid=1673380167&s=drugstore&sprefix=just+fitter+%2Cdrugstore%2C95&sr=1-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

According to reviews they run a bit high so maybe I should bear that in mind.

So your DH's cousin used Zymot for two IVF rounds? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding. And when you say 1 million motile do they want progressively motile? Because our main issue seems to be progressive rather than generally motile. They just twitch :/

@Lori2022 I don't think AMH is a factor, not to my knowledge anyway.

@Gardenlady543 Sorry you're having a bad day, that sounds crap but try not to worry what they think, you know what a shit time you're having and it's understandable.

Work is getting busy again and I feel like a failure these days, I've now been stuck there for over 4 years because the ivf has taken over so I appreciate the mostly wfh life so I stay. I took the job because it does have good benefits including good mat leave and I waited to ttc until I'd been there a while and look where that got me 🙄. I've just stayed put with no career progression and the same monotony. I can't leave without finding a higher paid job with equivalent benefits and flexibility which might be tough so I should probably just suck it up for now. Ivf and infertility can do one.

@thislittlebird Looks like we're both in a similar position looking at getting immunes testing done.
Re your Q about vaginal ph, I don't know anything about this, but when I was tested my ph was 4.0 and I was L.Crispatus dominant.
Re your Zymot Q, I paid £210 I think and it's now £220. It's just a sorting chip used as an add-on. We also tested the efficacy through Mr Ramsay, to check that it was helping rather than stressing DH's sperm (it's a bit of a bootcamp for them). We were "unexplained" for years because DH's sperm was "perfect" and it was only after 2 miscarriages that it was discovered that below the "perfect" appearance, there were high levels of DNA fragmentation, which was such a shock. There was no obvious cause for it, no varococele. Proxeed Men and lifestyle changes improved it, but still high. ZyMot and ICSI cycle - failed. Then Mr Ramsay, antibiotics and probiotics for us both, ZyMot and ICSI again - good quality embryos (albeit another miscarriage). Hope this helps.
I can totally relate to you feeling stuck in your job with no career progression due to IVF. I'm the same - stuck in the same job with no progression for over 7 years now, of which over 6 years I've been battling infertility/IVF. I agree, infertility/IVF can totally do one!
Looking back over your previous posts, we're both also turning 40 in the next few months. So I understand xx

@CailinInUK Thank you for the further info/advice. I'm so sorry for your late miscarriage, especially after such gruelling treatment. There just aren't words. I really hope all goes well for you starting a stimms cycle in March xx

@Gardenlady543 You're not unhelpful at all! I'm really grateful for your and everyone's responses. What a hurrendous day you've had! - I'm so sorry. I hope you have been able to relax this evening. Do what's best for you re work and don't beat yourself up about it or worry about what they think (easier said than done I know). I too have to WFH, avoid triggers etc. You're what's important xx

@thislittlebird sorry I wasn’t clear what I meant 🤦‍♀️ I meant that I don’t think I’m close to menopause as read that can alter ph. I hope I’m not anyway

@Faithhopelove83 thanks for sharing. It's honestly useful to find people going through similar things. What were the outcomes of your cycle(s?) fertilisation and embryos wise? Sorry if you said this already, I should probably look back.

Yeah, I've got this list of immune testing from my clinic and I'm a bit baffled about which I should be doing and I should ask my doc, but I want to read more myself before I ask him for direction. I have issues with it too, one of which is one of the red traffic light/controversial treatments is intralipids and I've read they aren't advised for people with high cholesterol, which I have had since my 20s (unexplained, despite lots of tests). The other is, the key treatment I'm likely to agree to is steroids/prednisolone because I already take it occasionally for other immune issues (asthma, eczema). IMO they should just give me the prednisolone, the only time I had implantation was on our third transfer (chemical) when I self-medicated with pred briefly that I had at home for my asthma. But they refused to do that when I asked because I hadn't had the NK cells test. Soooo I'm now going to have to pay for expensive immunes tests to tell me my immune system is a big mess, which I already know. I hate pred, it gives me a fat face that doesn't go away for a VERY long time (years, not months for me, it honestly ruined my nice jawline/face shape) and I'll likely request a lower dose than they'd usually offer, but I strongly suspect it's one of the factors in our failed transfers. We had three "good" embryos transferred (4AA, 4AB, 4BB last year) and two bad (didn't make it blast) embryos in November after my husband had been ill, we didn't know at the time how it would impact his sperm. Lesson learned.

So for our eventual next round I'm hoping to have immunes done, an improved sperm situ for DH, maybe karyotyping too. Not sure what else, will see. Might make an appointment with the immunes specialist at my clinic for a chat as well. Oh and maybe the lupus antibodies test? I might have the name wrong, there's so many, I need to read more.

Ughhh yeah the 40, infertile, and fucked off with my job club lol. It's not fun here. When do you turn 40? I'll be 40 in May . On one hand I want to do something fun and lovely and spend money on it, but on the other we cannot do that because of the stupid IVF. Hopefully we can have a nice holiday in September/autumn and do something lower key in May. I did book a day at a spa on a farm with a natural swimming pond in July but that's technically not for my birthday, that's our Christmas present for each other because we didn't fancy a freezing natural pond swim in January!

@Lori2022 oh yeah, I know what you mean. I had a FSH of 5 and AMH of 31 last I tested, both might be higher and lower now but I'm hoping I'm not peri, even at 39.5

@thislittlebird my consultant’s cousin did a Comet test on their sample with and without Zymot. The sperm that went through Zymot showed significantly lower DNA fragmentation.
I just did a Google and it seems that 1million/ml
of progressively motile sperm is required for Zymot.

Oh I forgot to add @Faithhopelove83, we saw Ramsay last year and he cleared us to start ICSI based on DH’s results. Which was sort of right, since we did make some embryos that time (he’d been on supplements including impryl for about a year at that stage). After the failed second cycle we now have 1) an appointment with nhs urology and a sperm test on Jan 19th and 2) another appointment at the same hospital with andrology and ivf (our old nhs clinic) in February. No idea where the first appointment has come from tbh, but we’re hoping to attend both and see what happens.

@CailinInUK useful to know. Maybe that’s something we can discuss with the consultant down the line, if his numbers are good enough by then.

@Gardenlady543

Thanks. I suppose I’m cautious as these are my last embryos. Sorry for asking too many questions. As I’m waiting for period, my transfer will likely be 1st February. Therefore, if I take metronidazole this week, from cd1 when
I start period, could I use vagibiom or canesbalance with probiotic for one week whilst on them, then start femme flora etc without lactic acid? It’s just metronidazole tends to alter ph slightly. Also, should I take anything to prevent thrush as metronidazole can cause it, but I did not get it. But it’s difficult in a transfer cycle.

@Gardenlady543
Sorry I meant to ask did you use vagibiom for full 15 days without break? Also another probiotic you might find good is lakcid intima which contains two good lactobacillus strains: gasseri and rhamnosus.

@Gardenlady543 im so sorry you found that day so tough. It sounds very difficult. Are you back working from home now?

I have 2 customer facing jobs and I’m already worrying about how I might be over the next few weeks.

I feel like I can’t keep up with the thread about immune testing and microbiome because it’s something I know nothing about :( I don’t like not being able to reply but I simply don’t know. If my time comes to this which it may because I’ve not had a natural pregnancy since my miscarriage then I know there would be a lot of suggestions for me. I’ve done 6 evenings now of menopur and 2 of cetrocide and I don’t even feel anything - worried it might not be doing a thing to my ovaries!!! With my low AMH! I still feed off about the brown spotting situation and thinking I must have inflammation and that’s why my AMH and follicle count aren’t even mildly close. I think I have some Inflamation somewhere causing the brown spotting and low AMH :( I only get my first scan done Saturday so I’ve no idea what’s going on.

@thislittlebird oh yes the career on hold during IVF annoying situation :(

Omg years :( I have moon face right now and look so different

Thanks @Faithhopelove83 ❤️

@2021ivfagain do you need to take metronidazole, I think it would be better to take in a cycle off shortly after the period then to do 10 days of vaginal probiotics and then just take probiotics in your FET after your period has ended. I mean you can do the metronidazole in a cycle, it hopefully won't get rid of too much of good bacteria that you have.

@Loz2467 yes back at home today, heart rate is on the high side again I think because of the stress of it. Spent the whole of yesterday evening crying. Debriefed with my line manager we went through everything and decided during the day we couldn't have done anything differently once all the triggers had started. We talked about how we could have discussed the triggers with the teacher who could have steered things away and definitely not mentioned triggers themself, once the announcements started the teacher started going on about how important being a mum is. One of my friends came up with a m good option, although I think it would have been better coming from the teacher. Basically people were doing fun facts and there were multiple family pregnancy announcements starting with one of the two people there that know how triggering this is for me! My friend advised saying something like, "not everyone has a family yet or wants one so I’m going to make a different contribution and talk about my hobbies/pets". She said it's a bit like only going out to pubs for your team night out if you have someone who doesn't drink for religious reasons in your team. It's over now,

I just need to focus on moving on, I guess this was just a very traumatic day, the note I was handed in particular was so difficult.

@Gardenlady543

I’m sorry it’s been difficult for you.

Even though my symptoms are better, I think my consultant still is ok with me taking the metronidazole. The concern is if it gets worse after transfer it will be too late to take metronidazole.

I have also been waiting to take them. I’m still waiting for my period but took a lot of norethisterone to delay cycle due to my mum being in hospital and my husband being ill etc. Also, if I delay this month, I don’t know what my fsh will be like next month. Last year it spiked and got high as I didn’t ovulate and I was really stressed.

My consultant is happy with me taking metronidazole in the transfer cycle but I will start as soon as I get my period. Does metronidazole get rid of bacteria? I thought it spared it.

Would it be ok to take metronidazole when I start my period in the transfer cycle? So I take metronidazole from
cd1 until cd7 and at same time take probiotics with canesbalance and then just take probiotics thereafter. I could even take two a day to build it up faster.

@2021ivfagain it spares lactobacillus more so the others, but will probably kill some, in that case aim to start with your period so you can go straight on vaginal probiotics when the bleed is over after the antibiotics. Then keep going daily through the cycle.