ERA EMMA ALICE testing thread #6

[Gardenlady543]

@Janefx40 @birdbybird @seven201 @Gardenlady543 @patientpatient @MyEasterEggs @thislittlebird @Yuliaaa @Violette22 @2021ivfagain @OrangeBengal @Enfys23 @Loz2467 @DEIVF @Hopeful199 @ER12 @greendress789 @Douchas12111 @Lori2022 @AdviceForJane @Anonbaby @Molls87 @ChickenT2b @GoldenElephant @IVF22 @StillTrying10000 @warrior101 @whatcangowrong @Yaynayokay

Oh yes it really has happened we are onto thread #6.

All are welcome to join us, we started out as people interested in ERA EMMA ALICE but we seem to have had every test available between us.

So if you want to know about the microbiome, reproductive immunology or you just feel your case is complicated and what like minded people to talk to about it you've come to the right place

@VenusStarr there is a very helpful dnafragmentation subreddit, that value doesn't seem that bad to me. My understanding is dna fragmentation is variable between tests and the normal treatment is to explore if there is a urological issue, take vitamins, lifestyle factors and consider sperm preparation methods like a sperm chip sorting method (there are various names for this). I don't think the miscarriages are due to this, so I hope you and your partner aren't taking this too hard.

@seven201 is it worth going back to Lower for the next operation? He seems to be an expert, it feels like you have been exploring surgical issues in the uterus for ages and have to keep revisiting, so may be best to get Lowers opinion, even if it's just to ask for advice on what to do next?

Oh gosh @thislittlebird I'm sorry things are so hard right now. This sounds really tough ❤️

Thankyou for the well wishes, I'm sorry to hear you guys are getting this bad news :(

@VenusStarr oh gosh, what a shitty time you're both having. I hope your dh's referrals come through quickly. Is he able to talk about whether he still wants to throw a baby into the mix yet or is he still processing? I have no idea about dna fragmentation but the fact the test centre place said it was in normal range gives hope. Have you got another CRP appt to discuss it all? We don't take impyrl, dh takes proxeed and we order that direct from the manufacturer, sometimes that's best.

Thanks, I'll keep on the levothyroxine and metformin. I only took the trigger yesterday so not in the tww yet. Dh and I just had the very romantic convo about if we should have sex tonight or do the syringe method! I really can't be arsed with sex but part of me thinks it's probably a bit more efficient/effective

@Gardenlady543 I have been wondering the same thing. It only just dawned on me today that maybe the hysteroscopy could be to blame for somehow damaging my niche. Alternatively Mr Lower didn't fix it properly when he did his surgery. I just don't know. Part of me just wants to stick with CRP for ease (and cost, as I suspect CRP are cheaper than Mr Lower).

It's hard to know what to do @seven201 I remember cream going to Lower a few times and him trying to get the surgical issues in the best state possible. I genuinely think Lower and Trew are the ones to go to for this stuff as this is what they do.

@VenusStarr dh uses impryl alongside other things like ubiquinol and omega 3, he gets it from the main website that sells it. I don’t use it but have considered it. He took it for almost a year before our first cycle and we did make a few blasts. This time he hadn’t consistently been on it for a while and it went to shit, I do think it helped plus his dna frag was ok (not great, but not awful for his age) in Feb 2021 when we saw the andrologist. We’re seeing another one in February 2023, in the nhs clinic time time to get a second opinion on it all.

Did they give you the various DNA frag scores? Or an average?

I get you, I’m 40 in May and if I’m honest I’m finding it really hard. Feels like there’s no hope after that point when it’s been so bad before 40.

Thanks @Gardenlady543, that's probably the kick I needed. I've just emailed Mr Lower's secretary asking her to ask him if I should see him again

@seven201
I hope he can see you quickly, I know people say he does a saline scan there and then and I'm sure you can pull together some notes or images on what's gone on so he can tell you what he thinks you should do.

Thinking of you today @Gardenlady543 wishing you lots of luck and sticky vibes

@Enfys23

Another thing that has helped my lining is ubiquinol, but I take a strong dose. I take 200mg ubiquinol three times a day.

Also have you asked about oestrogen priming? I’m not sure if you need it but it really helped me thicken lining. A stimulated FET cycle has worked well for my lining. Last time for era, Emma, Alice and nk cells biopsy lining was 12mm.

Another thing that really helped my lining as well was acupuncture. I think also massage and cupping can also help.

@Gardenlady543

Is your transfer today? I’m so pleased you have got to this stage.

I had such a busy day yesterday. Felt stressed as my clinic didn’t accept one of the tests I had done at my GP surgery as it wasn’t it their format!

I’m on way to London (my IVF clinic) to get a lot of blood tests done before my transfer in January. A consultant called me yesterday and explained that I do have a poor amount of lactobacillus in my microbiome but I might have always had that.

How are you going with vaginal pessaries? I found out you can take canesbalance in pregnancy. I’m wondering whether I should take one or two of these in the two week wait to maintain a healthy ph.

Are you still drinking kefir? Do you drink it daily? Did you ever have the apple cider?

I have just read that if taking prednisone steroids these can interact with probiotics. I need to take vaginal and oral probiotics but it said they can cause infections. Is this true?

Lots of luck for transfer @Gardenlady543

our transferred number 3 just failed 😞 Does anyone have any testing recommendations? Our nhs clinic will just want to do another retrieval but we’ve had three fail to implant so want to do some investigation ourselves even if that is abroad

Thanks guys

Waiting to go in for transfer at the moment progesterone is 145 which sounds like a good value this was before my morning doses so is likely as low as it's getting.

@2021ivfagain I'll be using some probiotics in the two week wait but nothing with any acid as I don't want to change the pH around implantation time. Still having the apple cider vinegar from time to time. I don't see how steroids and probiotics could interact, steroids can make people more likely to develop a misbalance in their micirobiome so I would have thought probiotics and steroids would be a good mix.

On a different subject I've been having a lot of pineapple core. The internet says maybe only do this for around 5 days post transfer though.

Still waiting to go down, I did a pre transfer FRER today as a baseline, it is 7 days since the 5000 gonsai and it wasn't even held urine and there was a very visible line. So this is good news as I know hcg is felt by some to be beneficial around transfer time. It also means early testing is likely to be very stressful so hopefully this test will persuade me away from it.

The very best of luck @Gardenlady543 hoping that this is your time and the transfer is successful. Fingers, toes and everything else crossed! That’s a great progesterone level.

hi girls
sorry so many are still on here from when I was . I hope you’re getting closer. I jumped on to see how things were going for you all

@Gardenlady543 wish you so much luck.
@seven201 hello(!) - I would see lower again. I saw him a few times and first time he told me not to transfer but the month later he was happy with how my lining was. He said it wasn’t great but it was the “best he could get it” and I wasn’t very reassured by that but turns out he was right. It wasn’t triple anymore except in a few areas and I was sure it was too messy and I needed more surgery but he was right. He’s def the right person to comment on if your lining is the cause of things
@VenusStarr im sorry your still wading through it all. I send u lots of strength

xxx

@VenusStarr there’s good evidence that increased fragmentation can contribute to miscarriages and my impryl for 3 months can help. But other reasons like a varicole need to be checked. We saw mr Ramsey in London but not sure if he’s working stil..,,

All done and home now and in bed because why not. So the embryologist said the embryo thawed nicely and that it is technically hatching as they have to be to have the biopsy taken, but it decided to go back inside when frozen and hasn’t started coming out again yet but she said the hole is there so it will. So we discussed whether it is technically expanded vs hatching and she said it’s hatching because that’s the way they define it. I thought this might give it some protection as I know that once hatched embryos are fragile and can be damaged during a transfer, she didn’t think so though! We spoke about how I had a BB embryo transferred in the past as it had a embryoscope score of 9/10 and this one today is a 8/10 AA, I asked if they are pretty much on par given the better grade and she said no that the the 9/10 would have been better according to their data. I mean I’m not sure how convinced I am on the embryoscope score and I know we have someone here who felt sad about a double transfer of lower embryoscope scoring embryos and ended up with twins. Plus my 9 and 10/10 embryos did nothing for me, so who knows.

I am usually told that the lining quality looks poor on transfer day that it compacts a lot so looks very thin and is patchy. Although they don’t normally tell me until down the line and act like it’s fine on the day. But the doctor had a chat with me about the appearance and took a measurement and got a whopping measurement of 9.4mm so that was great news even though it’s not that accurate with an abdominal scan and with progesterone around. There didn’t look to be much lining, just a tiny bit at the top of the uterus although people have told me before it doesn’t matter there is enough for implantation which tends to happen close to the top of the uterus anyway. The doctor said the lining looks better than the last transfer.

It was a bit stressful as the doctor needed to use several speculums to find the right sized one which couldn’t have been good for my body to be going through but the actual transfer procedure seemed to go smoothly.

So there we go all down and PUPO for the timebeing. I’m hoping to stick to the plan of taking my blood next week. I don’t really want to swan around thinking I’m PUPO and imagining the future as nothing has ever implanted before. But I would like to spend some time doing some nice things over the next few days, watching shows I want to watch, putting up a Xmas tree and doing a jigsaw puzzle. I’m off work until Monday so hoping to spend the next few days on these activities.

I'm going to catch up later properly but just popping on to say congrats to @Gardenlady543 on being pupo!!!! Finally!

Thanks @seven201

And also thanks @Addidas and @Dochas12111

@Gardenlady543 Glad it went well, apart from the speculum drama!

Based on my own research, I’d rank in this priority order by far: euploidy - morphological grade AA/hatching- and then lastly - the embryoscope grade. So I wouldn’t worry about the 8/10 with all things considered.

I also read that hatching (or possibly expanded) is better than fully hatched for FET.

It all sounds great, I hope you get what you fully deserve. You’v done all you can.

Thanks @CailinInUK I felt a bit like I was trying to be positive and got shot down! But it definitely sounds like a great embryo on paper either way, just need my uterus on board now

Hello,

Please may I join? It's so rubbish when things are more complex isn't it. I wonder if anyone can share any advice? If you go for immunes testing does that cover the ERA/EMMA/ALICE?

We have 1 child which I am so so grateful for. Our diagnosis is unexplained infertility. We have had 3 transfers (from the same batch as our son) since he was born and all either failed or mc. Just looking to see where to go from here. And I can't help but still be frustrated that we don't have an answer to our 'unexplained' diagnosis.

Thank you for reading!

@Zest11 welcome and very sorry about your losses. Immunes testing and ERA/Emma/Alice are separate. Immunes is testing for things like natural killer cells and cytokines; ERA is testing for receptive endometrium, Emma for microbiome and Alice for endometritis.
hope that helps

@Lori2022 very sorry to hear about your transfers. Have you done any tests so far and what is your original diagnosis? Sorry - I don’t know your history.