Success with even or uneven cell division embryos??

[Smushles]

Hi all, just wondering if anyone remembers the cell division of their embryos that worked / didn’t work.

I know the clinics go on grading but for me we transferred some AA embryos but it was the BB embryo that stuck. The BB embryo was 10 cells prior to becoming a blast so even division and good cell count whereas the AA’s were 9 cells so uneven division and a less cells.

I’ve tried looking for research papers on whether cell division and in particular even cell division is a predictor of success and can’t find anything so thought I’d ask here.

Wondering whether an 8 cell even division is better than a 9 cell uneven division for example.

I asked my clinic about this. I assume you're talking about your day three update. The embryologist told me that it was simply a point in time question - so your eight cell embryo, ten minutes before they gave you the update, could have been a seven cell. I imagine you'd need an embryoscope to get more of an idea of the correlation of embryo development and pregnancy success.

@Rosemarypots exactly that re day 3 update. I don’t think a 7 cell could be 8 cell as it’s based on cells splitting so how it was explained to me is that an 8 cell would develop from 1 cell to 2 to 4 to 6 to 8 whereas a 7 cell at some stage went from 1-3 or 2-5 so uneven split and I wondered if this was correlated with success of transfer.

A day 3 ten cell sounds alot stronger to me than a day 3 7 cell for example yet our 10 cell was graded BB and uneven ones AA and the BB was the transfer that worked.

I'm not sure then. My clinic is CRGH, and the embryologists come across very well, and I think that's how they explained that to me. But their main point was that they don't see embryo cell development at day three as being predictive, as long as they're at 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 cells. But I suspect they were talking anecdotally as I doubt they've studied it.

Yes there doesn’t seem to be research on it. I was just wondering even anecdotally people remembered whether their successful transfer was even or uneven cells

@Smushles see this link and click day 3 embryo grading:

www.healthline.com/health/infertility/embryo-grading#day-3-embryo-grading

I read quite a few research papers on this subject at the time - blame a lot of sleepless nights over 5 rounds of IVF

even cell division is best - but as others have said minutes before or after they could look totally different

But there is an optimum number of cells at day 3 which have the best success rate/chance of making a blastocyst. Pretty sure it's no less than 5 but equally no more than 10. So they can't divide too slowly or too quickly. The odds of the embryo being genetically abnormal are much either in the below 5 and above 10 cell category

Over my 5 egg collection this is roughly my stats

Cycle 1 - short protocol - 14 eggs collected. Less than 30% fertilised normally. On day 3 of the 4 in the running they were all graded 2 or 3. No grade 1 and none had the optimum 8 number of cells. Day 5 I ended up with 2x 3BB and a 5BC.
FET1 - BFN
FET2 - ruptured ectopic (double transfer)

Cycle 2 - short protocol - 14 eggs collected. Less than 30% fertilised normally. Day 3 2 left in the running both grade 2 - 9 cells
PGTA of both on day 5 - 1 was complex abnormal and destroyed. The other a low level mosaic.
FET1 of the mosaic - BFN

Cycle 3 - natural modified - 2 eggs. Both fertilised. Day 3 grade 1 both 8 cells. One frozen day 3 but later became a 5BA and one on day 6 4BB.
FET of these at the end of a 3 cycle package- twins!

Cycle 4 - natural modified- 7 eggs. 100% fertilised. Day 3 2x Grade 1 both 8 cells.
Day 5 1x 4AA and 1x3BB (still frozen)

Cycle 5 - short protocol - 1 egg. Day 3 grade 4 so crap quality think it had 3 cells. Didn't make blastocyst

So for me the Grade 1 and 2 made blastocysts but my Grade 1 were my twins. My Grade 1 and 2 were 8-9 cells. Anything more or less than that didn't make blastocyst/too poor quality to freeze

@Smushles

Hi. I’m embryo batching but have decided against PGS testing. They have all been frozen so far at day 3. Has anyone had success with blastocysts which were 9 cells on day 3? I have two 9 cell embryos from cycle three with very little fragmentation: one is a grade -1 and the other is a grade 2+. Thanks

@Smushles

Hi. Did you have success with a 9 cell embryo at day 3? Did it become a healthy blastocyst? Thanks

I just had 2x 9A embryos transferred few days ago. I tried to search so hard to find someone on 9 cells but nothing .

Did you have any success hun

@twinsetandpearl ah lovely despite all those younds you've got kids! congrats!

I am about to have my first (and only NHS funded) IVF round in March. A private consultant has said earlier that he would recommend ICSI + PGTA for us (husband has Oligoasthenoteratozoospermia).The NHS consultant though said re ICSI they'd decide on the day if needed (looking at the sperm) and the PGTA as not needed as at 35 my egg quality cant possibly be bad. I am a bit concerned about the differing views here and its my only NHS funded round so I want to give it our best shot! Any thoughts on this please given your experience and knowledge?

Also what is short protocol and what is natural modified?

Thanks in advance