Does anybody take a probiotic?

[IamnotwhouthinkIam]

I was looking at probiotics to help with gut health during IVF (possibly it's also supposed to help with full body wellbeing too). Does anybody take one and if so what brand? And when do you take it - in the morning on an empty stomach? (I already take egg quality supplements then - NAC and ALA, so I'm not sure if it would interfere).

Sorry for all the questions but thanks for any help!

Thanks @Kphil1 , good to know .

Sorry to say but things like Actimel/ Yakult are a complete waste of money!

The evidence for these "supermarket probiotics" is very, very shaky. And even then, they only have to be left out of the fridge for a few minutes during transportation to your supermarket/ delivery to your house and all the bacteria in them will die. They're not worth buying at all.

My partner was advised to take a probiotic for fertility reasons (we have male factor infertility) and our clinic recommended Symprove.

It's expensive, but the reason for that is it actually does what it's supposed to do.

Actimel "probiotic" drinks are nothing more than yoghurt with some clever marketing. If you do need to take a probiotic for whatever reason then you should get a proper one. They're not cheap - Symprove is about £50 a month for my partner - I don't take it because I haven't been told I need one.

Thanks for the help @want2bemum - I looked at Symprove as it seems well advertised, but as well as the high cost, some of the reviews say even the flavoured version tastes foul (and I struggle keeping down horrible tasting liquids, compared to pills). Good to know it helped your husband, though.

They seem very popular but I've never been clear how Actimel/Yakult is better than ordinary natural Bio Yogurt or Kefir yogurt which I eat for breakfast anyway (as I enjoy it)- I think they are basically similar things.

@IamnotwhouthinkIam

Thanks for the help *@want2bemum* - I looked at Symprove as it seems well advertised, but as well as the high cost, some of the reviews say even the flavoured version tastes foul (and I struggle keeping down horrible tasting liquids, compared to pills). Good to know it helped your husband, though.

They seem very popular but I've never been clear how Actimel/Yakult is better than ordinary natural Bio Yogurt or Kefir yogurt which I eat for breakfast anyway (as I enjoy it)- I think they are basically similar things.

Yeah, they really are very similar. The reason you've never been clear is because their marketing is so wishy-washy about what they actually do

They may have a very tiny amount of some kind of bacteria cultures which are supposedly good for your gut in some not-really-very-well-defined way. There is no evidence, and by the time it actually gets to your stomach most of it is dead.

Hi @Gardenlady543 thanks so much for your info. I have the exact same issue as you from my ERA/EMMA test results. Can you please share which vaginal suppositories you chose from the list? Trying to work out which one I buy

Hi @KSNS did yours come back with 0.00% lactobacillus as well? What are the other bacteria present and the percentages?

My case has just got complicated. I had a mix of dysbiotic bacteria and was recommended co-amoxiclav. I just had the EMMA repeated and the treatment killed off all but one of the bacteria (gardnerella) which has flourished and I've still got 0.00% lactobacillus. So now I'm on second line antibiotics.

I would recommend femdophilus and optibac for women as oral probiotics. You should also take a vaginal one daily for 10 days after completing the antibiotic course, I took canesflor.

@Gardenlady543 we have a scarily similar experience. In June i had 0% Lactobacillus, 79% Gardenerella. I took 7 days of antibiotics and then had to wait a while to get my probiotics shipped, and took them for a couple of weeks. My results came back the 2nd time and I now have 7% instead of 0, and 71% instead of 79% which sucks. I took the probiotic Flora Femma which had a lot of different strains.

I am meeting with my Doc tomorrow to discuss next steps. I am going to ask him for a vaginal antibiotic cream to target the Gardenerella. But I am looking for a good vaginal probiotic which definitely works. Will keep you posted

@KSNS what antibiotics did you take the first time around. I have found someone on another forum who had a test with www.fertilysis.com and they gave her a much more in-depth treatment protocol which I've attached.

It's probably not a case of the probiotics not working, it's likely you need either a longer course of antibiotics or a different type, as the bacteria may be resistant to the first one. It's also worth noting that gardnerella is a normal commensal bacteria in the vagina. So there is a chance that you got bacterial vaginosis since the treatment. Semen and menstruated fluid change the pH of the vagina which allows gardnerella to flourish.

Anyway here is what I'm doing this time around in case you want to replicate it, I've come up with this from adapting the protocol I've attached:

Metronidazole - either 500mg twice a day or 400mg three times a day for two weeks.
At the same time vaginal clindamycin 2% daily for two weeks.

While taking the antibiotics alternate between a daily vaginal probiotic and clotrimazole 100mg vagina pessary.

And take an oral probiotic- either femodophilus or optibac for women.

Once you've done all that use a vagina probiotic daily for 10 days, if you're going straight into a FET as I am then keep using the vaginal probiotic daily until the day before the transfer. And don't have sex as that might affect the microflora.

If you can't find anyone to prescribe what you need then you can order it from the independent pharmacy and chemist direct.

I had a bad experience with probiotics last time I took them and posted as such up there 👆. They were not specially for vaginal flora and I have to say I’m much, much happier using Optibac.

I’m still getting a lot of frequent thrush like symptoms but it’s not caused by the probiotics this time (the really high dose gave me what I suspect was CV) and I think the optibac helps when I take it after the the irritation starts. Anyway, I just wanted to update now I’ve used Optibac!

@Gardenlady543. Thanks so much for the info, very useful to take it to my Doctor.

I took Metronidazole for 7 days last time and have now been prescribed Clindamycin for 7 days from Igenominix.

I have also heard that you can get Thrush from taking antibiotics. Might be worth testing out this to make sure both BV and Thrush are not present.
www.canesten.com.au/products/intimate-health/canesten-vaginal-ph-self-test

I think my doc might suggest another EMMA test, so FET will be delayed 😞

@KSNS see if you can get 10-14 of the clindamycin prescribed. I feel like Igenomix treatment plans aren't in-depth at all.

The plan I'm doing has a antifungal (clotrimazole) in it, as the antibiotics kill off the bacteria thrush can set in.

I am waiting to hear back from my specialist about the FET but I'm worried if I repeat the EMMA, that it might come back as normal and then be bad again by the time I do a transfer.

@KSNS I looked up all the vaginal probiotics on the Europe Igenomix list last night, this is what they contain:

Movagyn:
Lactobacillus gasseri
Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Gynolact: 2 billion
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus rhamnosus

Invag: 1 billion
25% Lactobacillus fermentum 57A
25% Lactobacillus plantarum 57
50% Lactobacillus gasseri 57C

Vagiflora
lactobacillus rhamnosus

• prebiotic ingredients.

Physioflor
Lactobacillus Crispatus

Canesflor
Lactobacillus plantaum

Gynoflor: 100 million
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Estriol 0.03 mg

Normogin
Lactobacillus Rhamnosus

Acidif
Lactobacillus acidophilus

Febrin
Lactobacillus Rhamnosus

I decided to order the gynolact, it's coming from Germany. I don't know if there is much in the way of clinical trials on any of these, but thought I'd try this one as it has 2 billion bacteria per tablet and has some different strains in it. The Invag (lol at the name, looks like a good one as well).

Hi @Gardenlady543 thanks for the info! I have read that Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus Rhamnosus and Rueteri are the best strains.

The one I got shipped from the US had these strain

FloraFemme's "Super-Strains"

• Lactobacillus Rhamnosus
• Lactobacillus Plantarum
• Lactobacillus Reuteri
• Lactobacillus Paracasei
• Lactobacillus Bulgaricus
• Lactobacillus Salivarius
• Lactobacillus Brevis
• Lactobacillus Acidophilus
• Lactobacillus Casei
• Bifidobacterium Longum
• Bifidobacterium Lactis

I also met with the Doctor today and he has prescribed Clindamycin cream for 2 weeks and then Canesten for Thrush.

He was also happy for me to look into Boric Acid suppositories as they help balance the PH levels for the good bacteria to thrive.

My plan so far is

• 2 weeks of Clindamycin V cream
• alongside last 3 days of canesten and 7 days of boric acid (hoping all the gardenerella is gone by then)
• check the PH levels based on the canesten PH level sticks
• start my V probiotics immediately + 2 strong oral probiotics per days
• after day 10 go for another ERA test
• start my FET cycle whilst waiting for the result and continuing weekly V probiotics until FET and hopefully the ERA test comes back normal.

I was also looking to switch out of my laundry detergent + wash to sensitive and no fragrance plus switch to cotton underwear.

Lots of info and I am happy to bounce of any ideas you may have 😊

That looks like a great one @KSNS where did you order it from? I want to get that one to try too.

I was using balance activ to try and normalize the ph levels, when I was in the fertile window and when the symptoms came on it helped.

Yes let's definitely stay in touch and keep each other updated. It's good to know someone in a similar situation.

@Gardenlady543 I ordered it from this site, but the US postal sucks. might be easier to order it from their Amazon store. florafemme.com/

Also I forgot to mention, my doctor suggested that your partner should also take the antibiotic and cream to make sure you don’t get a reinfection. We are going to take it.

@KSNS it looks like it's not available on Amazon, I ordered from their official website yesterday. I paid through PayPal and got the PayPal confirmation but no confirmation from the actual website, and I ordered a lot so that's quite worrying. I emailed them and asked if they got the order but they haven't replied. Did you get any confirmation emails from the company?

Also about treating the partner. So my husband took the co-amoxiclav and now he's taking one week of metronidazole. Can men use the clindamycin cream. As I have to insert 5g into my vagina so not sure if it will have any impact by just rubbing it on the penis.

@Gardenlady543 here is the link my doctor provided. He wants my husband to use the cream too. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0190199

Also, yes the Flora Femme website isn’t great, I actually had to raise an issue through Paypal and they actually had shipped it but their website hadn’t sent the confirmation. Can you call them if you haven’t heard from them by tomorrow?

I also found another article (really long read) but it had some info on other emerging therapies. They feel a month of probiotics isn’t sufficient to fix the flora. Additionally they talk about using ‘prebiotic’ lactic acid gel, which allows your lactobacillus to thrive (but can also give you candida).

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0190199

That's good news to hear the website issue was the same for you but that you got the product @KSNS I've sent a message to their email and on their website form. It's just an international number for them so I'm not that keen on ringing that, as my network charges a fortune.

The two links that you put in the post are the same, what's the long read about the probiotics link?

Oh dear if a month isn't enough, I have been on oral probiotics which have evidence of working for months and I'm still at 0% which isn't great, I'm hoping if I can eradicate the gardnerella I'll have more luck though.

@Gardenlady543 oops sorry! forgot to copy the link over
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181210/

Here you go 😊 If you are in the UK, you should check out Balance Active Gel (it has lactic acid in it).

Thanks @KSNS did you decide how you're going to implement the lactic acid into the treatment plan? I've used balance activ before. I just took my pH and it's 7 although I'd imagine this is normal with the antibiotics I'm taking at the moment.

I've just been to the health food shop and bought acidophilus ( I tried to get another one but it was out of stock and the staff member said this was an alternative) not sure if it's the right one or not but I've had some thrush recently and I want it gone !! X

@Gardenlady543 sorry about the delayed reply. Finished my antibiotics dose and yes my PH was super out of balance too. Yes I have incorporated lactic acid along with the probiotics. My Flora Femme arrived on Friday and have been doing nightly treatments. I am going also use the gynolact one ( when it arrives) in the morning, so I can make sure the lactobacillus grows quickly.

Its going to be tight, but looking to do another EMMA test next week (10 days post treatment) and keep taking the probiotics until the results come back.

Hows your treatment going?

That sounds good @KSNS

I took 12 days of metronidazole with 7 days of vaginally clindamycin. I then did 5 days of flora femme with balance activ, then my period came. I've been on viagra which has extended my usual one day of flow on for 5 days! I've not used balance activ during my period but have been using the gynoflor daily (I wanted to use something cheaper while on my period), I am now CD5 of my FET and I'm going to go back to the flora femme and balance activ daily, I may also use a morning probiotic like you are, I'll probably use a cheaper one for that either canesflor or gynolact. I'm going to keep doing the daily probiotic throughout the whole cycle, I'll probably do 7 days of balance activ now my period is slowing down and then keep an eye on the pH.

@Gardenlady543 can you get this in UK? www.vagisan.com/en-au/products/details/product/dr-wolffs-vagisan-lactic-acid. This is what I am using along with the probiotics. Good luck with this cycle, will have mu fingers crossed for you 🤞🏽

Hi everyone, not sure if this thread is still active… but I have my transfer tomorrow (from a fresh round)… is it still ok to take the probiotics (optibac) after the transfer?