Does acupuncture really work?

[sabtom]

The title says it all really. I'm feeling so disheartened at AF arriving today, 2 years of TTC with 1 MMC. All the tests have been done and there's nothing wrong. I know my age is a big factor (41) but I'm healthy, fit and I'm taking all the supplements and vitamins that's possible, Ive tried reflexology so why can I not even get a hint of a 2nd line? I would understand my eggs are bad if I'm getting pregnant and miscarrying but apart from one time it's like they're not even getting fertilised, it's so frustrating and yes, we DTD regularly. Other than IVF (which is way beyond being financially possible at the moment) I don't know what else to do

Unexplained just means they haven’t found what the issue is not that there is nothing wrong if you standard tests come back ok. Your general health can have nothing to do with why you can’t conceive.

I would not waste time on acupuncture. I’ve done it pre ivf during ivf post ivf - probably a year in total and it did absolutely nothing bar actually mess up my cycle for a few months.

Can you get funding in your locality or take out a loan for IVF? Sometimes unexplained do really well with IVF as it sorts out whatever the problem is. This was the case with my friend who is now pregnant after one round despite 3 years of trying naturally and all tests coming back fine.

For me personally it was a waste of time and money that I could have just put towards treatment.
I know some people get pregnant after it but I think they were going to get pregnant anyway. Also anyone going to the bother of doing acupuncture is probably also eating healthily, not smoking, not drinking (much), taking all kinds of vitamins etc so how any success can be attributed to the acupuncture I don't know.
There are so many factors at play, I was going to say it can't do any harm but @Thentherewasyou might disagree if cycles were out of kilter afterwards.
My acupuncturist had a photo of album of babies she took credit for.

@Thentherewasyou the cut off age for NHS funding in my area is 39 so not possible, and it's not possible to get a loan either. Even if were were approved for one, it would still need to be paid back eventually and -touch wood- IVF works, paying for a baby and paying off a loan would make things very tight  @LongerthanMrTicklesarms I guess if I'm honest with myself I was sceptical about acupuncture too, I'm just getting so desperate at the moment my cycles are at a normal length and hormone test seem to be normal too, so don't wanna risk messing it up with acupuncture. If it's not broken and all...

Thank you for your replies x

(Sorry, name change previously Sabtom)

I think the answer is a bit more complex than "yes it works" or "no it doesn't". The truth is probably more like "it depends". Here's my experience with acupuncture to date.

First, let's be clear that I used to be dubious about acupuncture until some years ago, when I'd injured my back in a way that specialist sports doctors (trained in Western medicine) could not diagnosis nor treat. They'd poked around my back and had literally said, "I can see something something's not right with it, but I'm not sure what". I was obviously disheartened by this because the condition was a bother. Not debilitating, but it made the simplest of movements impossible (imagine being forever unable to arch your back because when I did that, there'd be a sharp, intense pain that bolted up my spine which would snap me right back. This made it impossible to stretch as I did something as simple as yawn, because the pain was just unbearable.

Out of desperation (and two years of pain and time spent hoping that perhaps my back would mend itself, as the body sometimes does), I tried acupuncture to see if it might help. I was wary that I'd be told the same thing as the other doctors (that the condition was mysterious and incurable), but the acupuncturist barely batted an eye when I described how I'd gotten the injury and gave her diagnosis (nerve damage). She prescribed 12 sessions of acupuncture, which I went through with. Unbelievably, that shooting pain in my back has never come back and I have full mobility. This is huge, especially because I love being active/sports and living with that condition would've been really limiting.

That's when I realised perhaps acupuncture has its value, in ways that Western medicine doesn't fully understand.

Fast forward to this year, when my partner and I decided we need IVF help after we were told we have "unexplained infertility". We've been on the mild IVF protocol and we've been seeing a fertility acupuncturist for two months (mainly me, as egg quality is key in fertility success as you probably know).

Here're the results we've seen so far: after the mild IVF protocol, they were able to collect 7 eggs that were sufficiently large to undergo fertilisation (there was an 8th, but it was too close to a blood vessel so they thought they'd not take the risk and left it in place). Seven eggs on a mild protocol is not too bad at all. And I felt WAY better than I'd previously been when I had gone for egg freezing and was put on the standard IVF protocol, which made me feel like a beached and bloated whale right before egg collection.

Anyway, of these 7 eggs, five had fertilised by d+3 (3 days after collection). The big question was, how many of these embryos would make it to blastocyst stage (d+5) and be good enough for transfer/freezing? Now, the statistic for survival from d+3 to blastocyst is somewhere around 40% (I've heard 30%-50%). So those percentages, I should have had 2 embryos by that stage, and I was thinking I'd be happy if 3 made it.

Guess how many actually made it in the end? 100%. All 5 of them made it, and the best one was rated by the embryologist as a Grade 5AA embryo (5 being the highest number in my clinic's rating system, and A being exactly what you think). In other words, top shelf stuff.

I don't think my body would have been capable of churning out those percentages on its own; I think the fact that I'd been working with an excellent acupuncturist whose speciality is in fertility made a huge difference.

I know for most people, acupuncture is still too "woowoo", but the science behind fertility acupuncture (for women) is, simplistically put, to encourage blood circulation to the right organs at the right time so that you can first produce high quality eggs and them have a healthy, stable pregnancy. Do I think it's the silver bullet to infertility problems? No. Do I think it can help you on your IVF journey? Yes.

Now, granted the above are just the results from one person (so it's anecdotal at best). Plus, I'm still pupo so it's too soon to celebrate in any way, but . But I am happy with the results so far, and the fact that 100% of the eggs that fertilised were good enough to freeze or be used as part of a fresh transfer - that I can't complain about.

I hope that provides some more context to a rather controversial topic. And as someone who's body had once been in great pain and saw real, lasting results via acupuncture, and as a hopeful mum now, I would not be so quick to dismiss the power of acupuncture.

To be honest though @indigocloud do you not think that the mild protocol is what made the difference? I’ve also had a 100% success rate of eggs to blasts in my latest ivf after 2 rounds with no blastocysts. If I had coincidentally done acupuncture for that round I might have attributed it to acupuncture whereas I actually did acupuncture for a year around my first ivf which resulted in a morula and nothing more. So for me I could say to the op I don’t believe I would’ve gotten those results WITH acupuncture.

Honestly I think if you’re going to get pregnant or have a successful ivf you will with or without acupuncture as evidenced by my successful round after stopping acupuncture and your successful round doing acupuncture.

What basis do you have for believing the ‘power of acupuncture’ caused your results not your actual protocol known to produce better quality eggs by not over stimulating the body!

@Thentherewasyou No, I don't think the mild protocol was the reason, as others in my same clinic (all very straightforward cases as the clinic only takes straightforward cases) did not get the same results.

I hope that answers your question. Of course, you're certainly entitled to believe what you wish about acupuncture; I'm not here to pick fights but share my experience (as others have so far), but you sound far too angry/ worked up for this to continue in a civilised way. So long.

@indigocloud why is it angry to point out that I had my best round with 100% blast from egg without acupuncture and you had yours with acupuncture therefore meaning that acupuncture was likely not the deciding factor?

How do you know that you were the only woman at your clinic doing acupuncture? Ive now done two rounds on the exact same protocol and I’m the exact same person yet I had completely different results on each so why would you expect to have the same result as other women with different protocol?

I feel like you are very defensive about this to be honest. You tried a brand new protocol that multiple women on this board attest to improving their egg quality and blast outcomes yet insist it had nothing to do your success and it’s purely down to acupuncture! I just feel that is slightly misleading to the op.

@indigocloud

I've done 5 rounds of IVF over 18 months - some with and without acupuncture and I can absolutely tell you the only thing which made a difference to egg quality and blastocysts was the protocol of the IVF nothing else. I don't think 1 round of IVF really tells you anything other than you obviously found your best "fit"
In terms of drug protocol straight away whereas some people have to tweak there's to get the best results. Mild IVF yielded rubbish results for me but when I changed to natural Modified that's when I got my best results
*
No, I don't think the mild protocol was the reason, as others in my same clinic (all very straightforward cases as the clinic only takes straightforward cases) did not get the same results.*

You can't compare your results with anyone else's as everyone has completely different that's going on - different sperm different eggs different everything!

Anyway I'm pregnant with twins - from the cycle I DIDNT do acupuncture- 5th round of IVF and 4th transfer so whilst I found it relaxing it had no bearing on the success of my cycle

People do often assert that all the fertility tests have been done when actually this is not the case. Unexplained is no diagnosis at all; all this means is that they have failed to find out what is wrong. It is sometimes also a "diagnosis" given to couples when they have not been adequately investigated as a couple.

At the very least I would have a look at this list and compare it to the tests you've had done to date (any test result done over 6 months ago should be discounted).

The most common tests that tend to be omitted are:-

Adequate x-rays of the uterus which may show abnormalities not otherwise seen at laparoscopy.

Hysteroscopy - telescope inspection of the inside of the uterus which may occasionally show abnormalities not seen otherwise

Repeated sperm counts over several weeks and months to make sure there is no subtle abnormality

Testing the sperm in special media such as swim up tests/velocity testing. However, when they are done, they often uncover a hidden cause for the supposed unexplained problem

Thorough hormone tests to detect abnormalities of male hormone or early falls in progesterone

Scanning of the ovaries to see if follicles really are developing and there are no sign of polycystic ovaries

The bottom line is basically what I'd said in my first post: the truth about efficacy probably lies somewhere between "absolutely yes" and "resolutely no", and no individual here can say whether it works or not (unless you happen to have been directly involved in an extensive number of acupuncture studies as a researcher). What happened in your individual case is simply not adequate in any way to draw any conclusions about the entire discipline. The OP asked for thoughts, and I'd shared my experience.

If anyone genuinely wants to understand acupuncture's efficacy on fertility, there are studies on its based on much larger samples than "people hanging around MN". Here's one for a start:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11937123/

There are loads more, and you can scrutinise the design of their study at your own leisure. At the end of the day, it's the sort of topic that seems to generate a lot of "strong reactions" from people, and I'm simply in the camp I'd said I was in from the get go: that there may be some value to it because I'd seen first hand how it resolved a major issue for me, and I wouldn't be so quick to reject it for fertility. Ultimately, I've no interest in getting into protracted debate with strangers on the internet about this matter. I've responded to the OP's question, and I'm happy with that. Peace out, ladies~

Oops, realised I'd shared a study that was a bit older. This is the one I'd intended:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31236890/

TL; DR - "Results: The clinical pregnancy rate in the acupuncture group was higher than that in the control group [60.9% (28/46) vs. 33.3% (14/42), respectively, P

@indigocloud that article is in line with all other research on acupuncture which shows the only evidence for acupuncture being useful is pre and post embryo transfer in terms of stimulating blood flow to the womb. There is no evidence that acupuncture assists in fertilisation rates, blastocyst outcomes and egg quality as you asserted in your post. Again this is misleading information.

“ What happened in your individual case is simply not adequate in any way to draw any conclusions about the entire discipline. ” this is completely true. You cannot say your successful blastocysts was down to acupuncture while disregarding the entire medical protocol you were on.

I think quite a few ivf clinics recommend during treatment. I personally find it incredibly relaxing during what is a pretty stressful time so for me that's enough and anything else is a bonus. I think some acupuncturists are better than others and I'm lucky to have found a good one.
Since starting acupuncture, my periods are longer, heavier and have fresher blood, which I put down to acupuncture, I am hoping this will improve chance of implantation.
Ttc #1, 18 months, 38, unexplained infertility, starting ivf in Feb fingers crossed.

I’ve also noted changes in my periods since starting acupuncture. I used to spot for a couple of days before my period but now I go straight into full flow and the blood is much heavier and fresher. So to me that’s evidence it’s doing something. But mainly I do it because it’s relaxing and allows me to offload a bit about fertility and what’s going on in my body.

I do think there are some reasons to do acupuncture:

• if you have issues with your cycle as per above posters it’s worth a try to see if it helps
• if you find it relaxing and are doing it for that reason
• if you have the money financially to do it
• if you have the time to do it without stressing

It’s not a good idea to do it if :

• you think your IVF will fail without it / you have to do it or you won’t get pregnant ( I am like this as I do it pre and post embryo transfer ‘just in case’
• you don’t enjoy it or find it relaxing
• you find it’s a big financial burden and are worrying about the cost
• you’re rushing to and from appointments and stressing out at fitting it in.
• you think it’s going to get you pregnant on it’s own

Overall there is no evidence to improve egg numbers, quality and embryo formation and ivf response. There is a small amount of evidence it helps with regulating or improving women’s cycles - primarily anecdotal and as shown by women in this thread. There are also a small number of studies finding it can help pre and post embryo transfer but otherwise no impact and these studies tend to not be very robust (ie don’t match women based on similar characteristics such as age AMH or time trying just have women who did acupuncture it versus women who didn’t which is not a good basis for research).

Post above conflating it with things like back pain - It can help for things like back pain given it loosens up muscles which tend to preemptively tighten if there has been pain or an injury. Physiotherapists also do dry needling for this purpose. This is more a physical response targeting an injury. Fertility issues are generally not an injury.

Thank you all for your replies, I do appreciate everyone's opinion. You've all given me a lot to think about. I would give acupuncture a try if I didn't have that worry it would mess up my cycles, even if it was for a placebo effect. I know it isn't cheap but I spent nearly 2K on IUI knowing the chances were just as slim as natural conception but I don't regret trying it. So maybe I might give acupuncture try (recommendations for fertility acupuncture in London would be great)

I've had acupuncture on and off for about five years now. I have DC3 and three miscarriages under my belt, but this is not something I've had done for IVF. For me the big benefit of acupuncture is the stress relief (I don't know if this is actually the needles or lying in a quiet room for 45 mins once a week) and then having a sort of fertility advocate and supporter. once a week i get to talk to somone who is a bit of a cheerleader for me, and is not DH (who is having his own difficult time), DM (who doesn't get it), or my friends who I think are fed up dealing with my grief. Much like a therapist this has to be the right person though. I can't say if it's helped me get pregnant as the third miscarriage was during lockdown so i'd not had anything for a few months. I do think it's helped with my periods, I am more regular and my periods are less clotty when i am undergoing regular treatment (that is only anecdotal, but my own experience). If you are looking in London, I can highly recommend Melanie Caldwell who works out of Fix East in Stratford, and I think has her own practice in maybe Balham, not 100% sure. Anyway, she's wonderful lady.