Dhea or not??

[Sunshinelove8]

Hi all , after recurrent miscarriages all at 8-9 weeks , I suspect I have egg quality issues ( all other tests were clear except low amh)
I read it starts with the egg book which suggested it’s beneficial and there are a lot of studies showing how for ivf especially it improves egg quality / quantity retrieved etc However, my fertility consultant said stop it immediately and he’s seen it negatively impact his ivf clients . So I’m totally confused ! Wondered if any of you out there had experience of it working / not working ? X

Interesting! We were considering ARGC. I would you be able to do it in Conjunction with your gp? If you already have the DHEA maybe they would be happy to monitor you every 3 weeks. When are you due to start ivf again?

I’m doing ok. Very busy in work which helps. Not going to test early as I’m on progesterone injections and I think it would be hard to keep taking them if it was an early BFN!

I’m not sure when to start ivf - next cycle or one after . I’m just recovering from my mc so wonder is it better to wait until my body normalises a bit but also worried about covid and all the clinics locking down again !
Yeah It’s great to work , takes your mind of things. I’m really rooting for you . If it was pgs normal very high chance it will implant , crossing everything 🤞🤞🤞

So my DHEA result has come back as 18 nmol/L . This doesn't seem right to me, I'm worried they've tested DHEA and not DHEA-S 😬😬. Can I ask what unit of measurements yours are in? I'm so annoyed! My testosterone is back too but it doesn't say which testosterone. I was too busy at work today to call my clinic but DH will have time tomorrow. I have a bad feeling though. Grrr if only I could've just done the medichecks one!

@Sunshinelove8 I'm in the exact same position as you and feel exactly the same way. I'm leaning towards getting on with it next cycle (any time now) as I'm fearful of everything shutting down again. Although if I've been dosing the DHEA wrong I may reconsider. Gosh, why is it so hard?!🙈

It took 3 months for my testosterone to go from 0.1-1.75 taking 75 per day which is the max dose. So I guess if you want yours higher it might be worth waiting and cleaning up diet etc at the same time. It is very tough for you guys though doing it yourself essentially as I just did what my clinic told me!!!! They didn’t test my DHEA said it will correlate with my testosterone. I’d hope clinics won’t close again I think it won’t go as severe as last time as we didn’t know what was going on!

@Sunshinelove8 hope your recovery is going ok. It’s tough physically and emotionally. I didn’t do PGS testing to be honest we were amazed we even go to blastocyst stage!!!

Sorry I thought id shared this before. It talks about the ranges and rates. Might help you interpret the results

www.google.ie/amp/s/itstartswiththeegg.com/faq/dhea-and-egg-health/%3famp

Thanks @Racinglikeapronow that link just so happens to be the same one I have been looking at but typically my results are in a different unit of measurement to both on there. I have followed the advice in her book since February, well for my first round most of it and for the second all of it strictly. I have always been on 75mg under direction of my clinic too but I fear it got too high for my last cycle so I've had a break for a few weeks. Since the test Ive been taking 25-50 mg to try and reach a middle ground whatever the result as I know I can't afford to go completely off time wise. My testosterone has come back at 0.7 which is lower than I'd like but not a disaster. I'll see what my clinic says today and update.

@SpyroC same level as mine , interested what your clinic says ! Also what is the best dhea to take , I ordered more but not sure it’s micronised or whatever , does it matter ? X

@Sunshinelove8 if you are ordering from Biovea the capsules are better than the tablets

My first order was biovea but left that hundreds of miles away ! They were capsules. I ordered from some other place now . Not sure If right version x

So my dhea arrived but spoke to my consultant and he has said do not take it . He’s adamant . I told him my testosterone result as well . He said he’s seen disasters with it being used and really poor egg retrieval and quality . He’s told me to trust him!

@SpyroC what did your clinic say ?

@Sunshinelove8 I agree with him - I had 2 top grade blasts from my first cycle (no DHEA), second cycle I took DHEA and only 1 egg retrieved which was a poor quality 4 cell on day 3. New consultant is also adamant I shouldn't take it

@Weswoo I agree if you don’t know your level then you may have had higher testosterone anyway and then overshot it further with dhea . However , I told my consultant my level , which wasn’t very high and he still wanted me to avoid it

There is so much mid information about DHEA. @Weswoo if you were making too quality blasts I don’t know why you would’ve taken DHEA in general never mind without testing your levels.

For me I made zero embryos for two rounds I didn’t have it then two quality blasts when I did. But I know my testosterone was 0.1 and it should be 1.5-2 and my clinic carefully monitored my dosage and levels throughout my taking it. In this way I think it will either help or make no difference.

@Sunshinelove8 could you discuss further with him past ‘trust him’ ie what were the testosterone levels of the women he know who had awful rounds on it. Were they monitored while taking it and what was their level for the ivf. Does he agree your result is on the low side of testosterone. Will he monitor you taking it to try bring your levels higher. I would want to know the answers to these questions before making a decision one way or the other.

I would expect more from a qualified medical professional than ‘trust me’ ‘I know someone it had a bad impact on’. Surely it should be evidence based.

Yeah I tried those questions but got closed down . As they don’t test testosterone, don’t believe in dhea , they wouldn’t know what women’s levels are etc it could be a case that they had high testosterone originally and took dhea and those were the ones that reacted badly . He just said his patients that admitted to taking it had bad egg collection .
I might just take a really low dose like 25 mg and test it in few weeks but I’m scared he detects it in my blood 😆

@Racinglikeapronow I know, I think they were trying to boost overall egg numbers but sadly it had the opposite effect on me and I ended up with empty follicles. It does work well for some though.

Gosh there is so much conflicting information and opinion out there and it seems we are being told different things. I have based my thinking on "It Starts With an Egg" however my clinic weren't bothered about testing so I went with it based on symptoms despite the fact that the author is clear that testing is a must. I had previously been tested for testosterone too and it was in the middle, the aim is to be top end of normal. The book is based on research/evidence. I now wish I had pushed for monitoring as I don't know if it helped or hindered. I respond well to the drugs given my AMH and afc but quality was an issue both times. That being said my consultant said not too change a thing as getting 2-3 day 5 embryos is good for my levels despite the poor quality. I pointed out my concern about the level getting too high and lowering egg quality. @Weswoo do you know what your levels were?

@Sunshinelove8 the consultant said as my testosterone is not low I don't need to take it but I can if I really want to as it is unlikely to go too high. They can't tell if the lab has tested the right thing as they don't normally test it so I've got to wait for the lab to get back to them. Apparently the lab they use in inundated with covid testing 🙈😬. I wander if we've been tested using different units of measurements? The micronised DHEA is supposed to be better. I noticed more symptoms on it though and this is when I think it went too high, I believe it absorbs better.

My DHEA level is 18 nmol/L though so if it's the right type of DHEA then it's low.

I'm very confused and am now spending time researching further as typically af decided to show today so I've got to decide whether or not to go ahead.

@Weswoo crossed posts. That's very interesting as both rounds I had several empty follicles. Your story is making me want to try going without.

@Sunshinelove8 it sounds to me like your Dr is either not up to date with research or is being conservative. The opposite to mine who are up to date but not very good at monitoring and are not conservative at all. Grrr it's so frustrating isn't it.

@SpyroC the clinic were the ones who told me to take it but despite that my levels were never tested! I was taking 75mg per day for 5 months. I have since done another cycle without and responded better

@Weswoo that’s interesting as this round I also had my ‘worst’ egg collection. 12 follicles only 7 eggs collected, 2 immature, 1 ‘soft’, 2 chromosonally abnormal, 2 normal mature which both went on to fertilise and become a hatching blast and expanding blast. But technically an awful egg collection. This compares to 1st round 5 eggs, 4 fertilised and egg quality seemed ok but male issues meant no blasts. 2nd round 10 follicles, 6 egg 4 mature and fertilised so I guess I did have empty follicles prior to taking DHEA too.

@SpyroC if you are making 2-3 good quality 5 day blasts I would think your egg quality is already good? Our issue was we didn’t get any blasts from 2 rounds. Did they say why they think your eggs are low quality if they’re fertilising and going on to blast?

It’s a bit of a minefield really isn’t it!!!!

It’s a bit you guys don’t know your levels though as we could better compare impact then.

@Racinglikeapronow yeah it would be great to know at what level bad cycles happened . If say you were using dhea , had testosterone levels below 2 and had bad cycles - that would be an indicator that the dhea is a danger . However , if bad cycles happen because the base testosterone level wasn’t known before or after dhea ( not monitored) then it could just be because levels got too high . There must be an experiment out there somewhere, grr so frustrating!

I agree, if I had known then what I know now I would have insisted on blood tests. I think it is ok to give it a go if your levels are proven to be low and then your closely monitored but I'm quite shocked that private clinics will recommend it without insisting on blood tests to monitor

I’ve read a few studies , why are none conclusive 😖 the last one I read said it improves amh and fsh but no effect on any ivf transfer, quality , live birth etc