Any advice after all embryos from an IVF cycle were abnormal

[EL8888]

We are 40 and 38, been trying to conceive for 2 years. 5 cycles of Clomid and 1 cycle of IVF last year. During which 18 eggs were collected, ICSI done, 10 fertilised and we ended up up with x5 5 day blasts. 2 transferred at the end of last year in 1 transfer and failed. Remaining 3 embryos were frozen. Clinics theory for failure was a sperm issue, as the majority of embryos dropped off from day 3. We PGS tested 2 of the embryos in the freezer and they were both abnormal. The 3rd died shortly after being defrosted so couldn’t even get that tested. I think it’s safe to say that it was abnormal, as were the 2 we transferred.

Not sure what to do next, the clinic aren’t especially helpful. I’m inclined to go elsewhere and get the comet sperm test done for my partner to see what they find. Obviously it could be an issue with both of us possibly. Any other suggestions?

People around us haven’t been especially supportive or understanding. The vibe has been you’re old, it’s ‘one of those things’ and to move on. I know we aren’t spring chickens but we aren’t that old

Are you a member of the IVF ICSI support or infertility support UK groups on Facebook? Good place to start to find people who have been in your situation.

I don’t have any advice but sending you love and hugs as it must be very rough. Also following as we are in a similar position, not had the generic tests but clinics advice is that eggs seem very problematic following five unsuccessful attempts with three early miscarriages. What clinic are you? Some seem a lot better at coming up with helpful proposals than others.

@LouiseTrees lm afraid l hate those kind of groups, l got chucked out of one as l said l had no interest in adoption and it wasn’t for me. They often seem to be lots of “l have been trying to conceive for 6 months and this is so hard” or lots of sickly sweet optimism. Neither of which l find helpful

@Shamoo sorry to here this, it’s tough isn’t it What is your next move do you think? We were with CRGH but l don’t really have any confidence in them or urge to have any more IVF. Especially as we don’t know what led to them all being abnormal. It was a huge waste of time so most likely will be next time unless we get more clarity. Instead of lazily describing us as “unexplained infertility”.

Here = hear

I have seen several women 40+ have all Aneuploid embryos and on subsequent cycles have managed to find a euploid, they just get harder to find after 36, I guess it just comes down to how much you want to invest in it emotionally and psychically. You should expect that 1 in every 4 may be euploid so I guess if you do another cycle you should hopefully find 1, you are getting good egg numbers and blastocysts so that puts you in a good position

@Lauren83 the problem is l don’t feel we have been assessed in much depth -especially my fiancé. There most likely is some kind of genetic issue with some of my eggs, if they are then combined with DNA fragmented sperm. Then it would make our odds very poor. It’s also quite frustrating a few years into this and £15k+ spent, then the explanation is there’s something wrong with one or both of us. It’s not an answer, it’s a hedge all bets / guess answer that l could have formulated myself for nothing.

Hi @EL8888 the whole thing is shit isn't it. My sickly sweet optimism left the building a long time ago, if it was ever there!

Regarding the sperm comet test, look at the Examen website, you can arrange direct with them in some areas (not sure how Covid-19 has affected the process as DH did it in London, on a Saturday last year and we had the results fairly quickly).

I think one of the frustrating things is that there are so many variables and unknowns with fertility treatment, so at least identify those that can be identified and go from there.

Or first clinic 'didn't believe in' sperm DNA test and after second attempt said they wouldn't do anything differently. Well we wanted a clinic who would try to personalise our treatment and give us the best possible chance and for us to at least feel they did everything they could, even if the result is not positive.

The odds are against me already with low AMH and same age as you.

Can you have a look at other clinics and see if one inspires more confidence? We paid for consultations with a few before deciding, a bit expensive but not in the IVF scheme of things we wanted to feel in good hands.

@JeNeBaguetteRien haha same here (lm not exactly sickly sweet and optimistic at the best of times!).

Thanks for that tip, l will take a look. Exactly, there are so many unknowns involved in it. But getting some kind of steer would help. Rather than commit thousands when they don’t even have any idea what the issues are.

Some personalised treatment and looking into OUR actual issues is what lm looking for. Not too much to ask l would hope. Why didn’t they ‘believe’ in sperm DNA tests?

To be honest @EL8888 I think they were just a fairly shoddy clinic not open to considering anything new. They were very rigid in their protocols, for example egg collection date was decided at the start and they did not deviate from that no matter how you were responding, when most clinics would tweak as you go along if needed. The do NHS treatment and I actually think it's a bit crap they have the contract and take the money from the CCG and then don't give it the best shot. But I'll get off my soapbox!

Not sure if your partner has seen a male fertility specialist? DH saw Dr Ramsay in London for an opinion. (Google Jonathan Ramsay).

Sorry that people around you haven't been supportive. We haven't told many people, apart from some friends I met through here. I told a friend last year and she kind of dropped me like a hot potato. My family would be zero use and chock full of platitudes.

Hi @el8888

I PGS tested on my second IVF ICSI round last year and all mine also came back Abnornal
Or mosaic. We were allowed to transfer the mosaic but it was a BFN

I know a lot of the Facebook groups are annoying and I've been thrown out of a few too 🤣 but there are a couple of good ones for PGS testing/abnormal/mosaic embryos

We decided not to do anymore PGS after that cycle (plus very low on money by that point!) but we did change our protocol to natural modified IVF and I'm now 9 weeks with twins from the first natural modified egg collection I did in January.

I don't know if it was just luck or the draw that month - seems unlikely though as have had 5 previous miscarriages plus the rubbish PGS results or it genuinely was the change in protocol which made all the difference. I can tell you though that we went from rubbish egg quality - less than 30% fertilisation and crap day 3 quality to 100% fertilisation and all grade 1 on day 3 and top quality day 5 blastocysts

Hi I know this is an old thread but @EL8888 I just wondered how you were getting on?

I’m in a similar situation - with 5 5 Fay blastocysts and it’s looking like they all may be abnormal.

Best wishes

@Annadance we fiancé did a speed comet test, his DNA fragmentation was fairly high into the 30’s which isn’t good. For about 6 months he’s been following starts with the egg. We are going to do a last round with donor eggs and his sperm chosen by using MACS or CHIPS.

It could be argued we should maybe have tried another round with my eggs and a different protocol. We can’t be bothered with that. The expense and uncertainty is too much for me, especially when the clinics don’t seem that knowledgeable or motivated. They swore they would call us Thursday or Friday but didn’t actually bother. They can call us Monday if they like but lm only available for some of it and fiancé is out for 14 hours of it, l don't wish to talk to them without them. Our 1st round was so crap that l wanted to try something radically different to improve our odds

@EL8888 has your DH been to a urologist? This could be worth doing to make sure there isn’t anything solvable causing the DNA frag

Sorry to hear you’re having a difficult time @EL8888 at times like this you need the support of the clinic but it’s so tough if they’re not supportive.

How were your first round of embryos graded?

Mine were supposedly top grade but realise now that is doesn’t mean anything

I’ve felt that after each cycle it just seems to open and more questions that can’t be resolved so totally understand your frustration

@Annadance sorry to hear this. What is plan next? What has your clinic said?

They thought the 1st quality was good. But lm not confident in their abilities -partly why we have switched to a different clinic

@EL8888 we’re having ivf for low male fertility but didn’t get any fragmentation tests etc done beforehand so they’ve suggested we check those next and go from there.

I’ve heard sperm retrieval can we a helpful way of getting better embryos however again, not a guarantee. And that’s the most difficult thing isn’t it not knowing !

But having had 5 blastocysts we really thought we would have at least one positive outcome !

Hi @ivfdreaming
Its so good how natural modified has worked for you! I had two rounds with all embryos coming back abnormal. Given my age (40yo) I am concerned donor eggs will be my only option. May I please ask where you did your natural modified ivf and who was your doctor?