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Infertility

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Endometrial Scratching...is it as bad as the name suggests?!?

41 replies

GlummyMummy · 09/06/2016 19:52

This has been recommended to me by my clinic as a possible way of increasing my lining which was disappointingly thin last time round IVF.

I am just a bit concerned as one reason for thin lining is Ashermans which is scarring to the womb, so surely scratching the womb would lead to Ashermans?!?! Also, as it's a new thing at my clinic, they were unable to give me any information on the long term side effects of this - any ideas? Is it worth having it done?

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funkymonk · 13/06/2016 13:59

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/infertility/2660648-Infertility-and-Endometrium-Lining-Issues?watched=1&msgid=61674437#61674437

Has this link worked? Bananafish and Glummy here is a link to a thread for lining issues. Not sure if you will want to join Glummy but feel free if you wish!

I think going with the scratch is a good idea. I have only heard good things about it to date. Good luck! I would continue with all vits over the course of IVF treatment.

Banana I did a search to check for any other threads on lining issues and I came across a conversation you and I had in early Feb on a vaginal viagra thread! You had just got your bfp Sad. So sorry that didn't work out. With regards to your AWOL cycle, then were you taking oestrogen in the run up to egg collection? If so, then it could just be taking longer for the levels to drop. I had a natural cycle where I took a heap of oestrogen. Once I stopped it took a very long time for AF to arrive. I was on the verge of asking for provera to try and kick start it. Could you call the clinic and see what they think?

GlummyMummy · 13/06/2016 14:20

Had a phone chat with Dr this morning and he said although I've only had 1 failed IVF attempt, I am only ever getting 7 eggs on max dose drugs so the endo scratch might help....bit confused, can it help with egg numbers?!?

He reckons I dont have Ashermans as my lining made it to 8.9 at ET and ladies with Ashermans would usually have a lining of 4mm max. Plus I am getting bleeding, albeit only 3 days worth!

Will check out that thread funkymonk - thanks!

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GlummyMummy · 13/06/2016 14:22

oh and I seem to remember reading that some supplements should be stopped once you start IVF stimms?

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funkymonk · 13/06/2016 14:41

Endo scratch wouldn't help with egg numbers. I can only think that if you are producing a lower number of eggs then he wants to maximise your chances of successful implantation by trying other things? 7 eggs sounds ok to me though?

I've not heard about stopping any vitamins (other than raspberry leaf)? I continued with all of mine. The only one that I've heard conflicting info on is that some clinics say to stop aspirin before egg collection as it can impact on egg quality.

Banana I had got some patches left but they must have had a really short shelf-life as they already expired in Nov 2015 Hmm I only got them in August. I do have 15 days of vagifem oestrogen pessaries (10mg) and 20 x 400mg cyclogest pessaries going spare from last cycle. More than happy to send them to you. I will never use the vagifem again and I've got enough cyclogest for this cycle already. Private message me if you do!

GlummyMummy · 13/06/2016 18:06

I was actually pleased with 7 eggs (with an AMH of 3 in 2012) but the quality isn't great of those 7 :-(

They thought our previous IVF failed due to a chromosome abnormality of the embryo so this isnt something endo scratch could help with. However, this may be our last IVF attempt so I think it can't hurt to try everything!

I'll need to invest in some more raspberry leaf tea....dreadful stuff!!

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GlummyMummy · 13/06/2016 18:28

funkymonk, meant to ask if you took melatonin at all?

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funkymonk · 13/06/2016 19:19

I think try whatever you can! When are you hoping to get started?

I've not heard of melatonin. What's that used for?

GlummyMummy · 13/06/2016 20:06

starting treatment at the end of the month, long protocol.

I read about melatonin in the book "It starts with the egg" - its supposed to help with egg quality

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bananafish81 · 14/06/2016 08:46

Hi ladies, hope you're OK, proper reply with personals to follow, just a brief update on the case of the missing period...

19 days post egg collection and period is completely MIA. Yesterday spotting had dried up completely, so whatever suggestion it might be on its way has disappeared

Emailed consultant's secretary yesterday, Dr is sufficiently concerned that he wants me to come in asap for a scan. On my way in for bloods, so results will be back for my appt at 7pm this evening. Very grateful that Dr is being so thorough, and that he's getting me in after clinic hours, so he can see me sooner rather than later. But bricking it as to what's going on that my toxic uterus has gone on strike. Urgh.

bananafish81 · 14/06/2016 09:58

Glummy great news on the cycle! Supplements wise I took everything up until egg collection, except for DHEA which I stopped as soon as I started any IVF medications. I took a boatload of stuff for egg quality, as I think I've probably wanged on about on another thread Wink I basically followed everything in 'It starts with the egg' (although I followed the DOR plan, and turned out post pregnancy my DOR had gone and I was PCO again, for which DHEA is very much contraindicated - although the 2 months of DHEA pre stims this cycle appeared not to have knackered my egg quality, given the PGS results). I took DHEA, ubiquinol, melatonin, high dose vitamin D, C and E, selenium, omega 3 plus my prenatal and folic acid (I take prescription strength because I have epilepsy). No idea if they made any difference whatsoever but made me feel like I was doing something proactive if nothing else. I didn't take aspirin whilst stimming, but as funkymonk says that can compromise egg quality, so would definitely check with your Dr.

Definitely doesn't sound like you have Ashermans with lining like that, you'd never get anywhere near that with adhesions. Terrific news!

Vitamins wise I've switched up my supplements for a FET to focus on lining rather than egg quality. I've dropped the ubiquinol, DHEA & melatonin and started L-arginine 6mg - which studies say plus high dose vitamin E can help the endometrium - but which the egg book says can be detrimental to egg quality. So wouldn't take in a fresh cycle to be on the safe side.

funkymonk thanks for setting up the thread - I shall mosey on over and get stuck in! I saw briefly that a lovely poster from another thread I'm on, who also has persistent thin lining issues, has joined - fab to have somewhere we can support each other and swap tips! And yes I thought I did recognise your username, I remember the vaginal viagra thread. Yes I got my BFP end of Jan, sadly discovered MMC in mid March at the 10w scan (had seen hb 9 days previously at 8+5, but baby only measured 9+3 so had died a few days later Sad)

Because this was always going to be a freeze all cycle so that we could do PGS, the focus was entirely on the eggs, and didn't need to worry about working on the lining for a fresh transfer. So didn't take anything for lining support - yet miraculously I grew that stonking 11mm lining all by myself!! Grew 3mm in 3 days so all the progynova during pregnancy appeared to have kicked my lining into gear

Dr was practically giddy with excitement, as said this would mean I'd have a proper period with lining entirely from my own natural oestrogen and progesterone - he said the body's natural oestrogen is superior to that given artificially. Before we started this cycle, in anticipation of having ongoing lining issues, we'd discussed the plan of action to work on the lining for a FET. He said he wanted to prepare my lining before we started a FET, as he didn't want to transfer until he was absolutely confident in the quality of the endometrium, as he said that was going to be the key to sustaining a pregnancy. He'd suggested a possible plan of doing a few more very gentle stims cycles - NOT for the purpose of collecting eggs (I'd be on a total unprotected sex ban to avoid any potential Octomom scenarios!), but to get my ovaries producing lots more natural oestrogen, so that the cumulative oestrogen exposure would hopefully continue to upregulate the oestrogen receptors in my endometrium. He said because natural oestrogen was superior, that would 'teach' my body more effectively for the long term than just putting me on an extended regime of cyclical progynova for 3 months (what Dr Sher suggests to prep non responsive lining)

Then when I grew all this lining we thought OK well we can skip all of that cos it knows what to do! Not sure what's going to happen now in terms of next steps, as we didn't anticipate me growing lining but not shedding it. Very very kind of you to offer re meds, may well PM you once I know whats happening, if that's OK? Really thoughtful of you Flowers

GlummyMummy · 15/06/2016 13:19

that's good to know can carry on until egg collection Bananafish, mind you it's costing me an arm and a leg!! Scratch booked for later this month too. My Dr is on holiday so it's another Dr doing it - just hope they know what they are doing. Do you happen to know if it helps to have the same Dr doing scratch as will be potentially doing your ET?

So you would only be on melatonin for a few weeks then as read you only start it when starting IVF medication?

Still concerned about my lining - baffled as to how it got so rubbish in 3 years as had no issues with it first time around. Maybe a conversation for the other thread!

Any sign of your period yet Bananafish, as you say, it's never around when you want it!!!

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bananafish81 · 16/06/2016 16:22

Hello all, proper reply to follow with personals (and I haven't properly joined in on the new thread yet funkymonk)

Firstly big hugs for the BFN funkymonk - so, so sorry for you and DH, really hope you guys can be kind to yourselves Flowers

The latest news from my toxic uterus is not brilliant. Urgh well basically it's all a bit of a mess down there

My lovely consultant got me in for an after hours appt on Tues, which was 19 days post EC with no AF. Hormones were all normal, progesterone was low so basically the 2 days of black clots was my period. Scan showed there didn't seem to be any thickened lining, but there was an 8mm clot of old blood, so he's a bit frustrated as my uterus just doesn't seem to want to give stuff up.

He thinks the lining I grew this cycle was probably not good quality, as he's concerned about the blood flow if I've only had a clotty bleed. So we're back to needing a good clear out first before we can start a FET

Plan A is a week of provera and a HyCoSy in 2 weeks time to have a clearer look at the uterine cavity. I started the Provera yesterday.

If that doesn't work, plan B is a month of cyclo-progynova (ie an HRT cycle) where we build fresh lining up with oestrogen and then try to have a withdrawal bleed off that.

Plan C involves another hysteroscopy but we really hope it doesn't come to that

We're not even yet at the stage of worrying about thin lining for transfer, we're just trying to get me to have a bleed before we can even start a FET

Said was fine for me to take a daily aspirin, vitamin E, l-arginine etc in the mean time to help with blood flow, said they couldn't hurt. He's just as frustrated as I am, just really hope plan A works.

It's just really sad. The uterine artery blood flow was terrific. The thrombophilia tests showed no evidence of any underlying clotting disorders. But we don't know why I'm just clotting and not having bleeds. He said it might some kind of issue with the vascularisation of the endometrium which maybe compromised the blood flow to the foetus and that's why it died. Basically did my uterus choke the baby to death? Sad We just don't know.

Just desperately hoping we can bring on a bleed - I still haven't had one since the miscarriage.

GlummyMummy · 04/07/2016 18:55

Just to update regarding the original post, I had my scratch done the other day and it was fine - no pain whatsoever! Not sure if that's a good sign or not!?!? Very little bleeding either.

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Keepsmiling13 · 07/02/2020 17:40

Hi all, I’m just looking to find out a bit more about endometrial scratching. Is it only really beneficial if you have a thin lining?
We’re about to go for our third round of IVF. My lining has been really good previously but it’s obviously still not worked so just exploring our options on trying something new. Anyone help?
Thanks x

Dirtygirty35 · 08/02/2020 08:41

Ive recently been told by my consultant who is based at the same clinic as Quenby that recent studies have proved that the scratch is not that effective as they first thought. They have (my clinic) stopped offering it to new IVF patients.
Ive had the scratch a few times, i have no issues with my lining. I do however, have a history of recurrent miscarriages.

BewilderedBee · 07/03/2021 00:51

I've just come across this old post and thought it's worth checking if anyone else on here has had a scratch due to thin lining. I've had a hysteroscopy today and they decided to do a scratch the same time. All fine at hysteroscopy and no explanation for my thin lining.

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