Swedish Parents raise 2 year old with no gender identity

[AndreaisSlowlyLosingIt]

www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

Had a discussion with the manshape about this who seems to belive the parents are insane. I however think its quite a good idea. The child is allowed to dress itself however it feels and its wadrobe includes both boys and girls clothes.

I'd love to know what the rest of you think.

Interesting article here that might upset Pop's parents:

monkeys

Sleeping - google 'gender social construct' and you'll get enough hits to keep you busy for some time. It's a pretty established idea. Lots of debate about it, of course, but hardly a startling new idea.

Dress a baby in blue and watch how people react, dress the same baby in pink and repeat - you'll see the difference. This has been tried again and again. People praise any behaviour that appears to be 'boyish' in a boy and vice versa. Everyone is forever telling me how tall and strong ds is (as if I hadn't noticed!), get very few comments on how caring and kind and helpful he is, although that's equally true (and equally obvious to most of the people who comment on the big and strong stuff, such as other parents at school).

Sounds to me as if Pop's parents aren't denying Pop any information - they are just refusing to label their child in public.

(And I don't think one experiment with 35 captive monkeys is necessarily the last word on gender construct in human beings.)

Edam - you said that so much better than me.

Nor do I think anecdotal evidence about dressing children in one colour or another or how tall and strong your DS is is the last word on gender construct either. It may be an established idea but that doesn't mean it's correct. I happen to think it's bollocks, you don't. That's the nature of debate.

oops sorry Kaloki, didn't mean to repeat what you'd said - long thread and all that!

Btw, re. monkeys, I remember the very dim scientists who claimed they'd 'proved' pink was for girls and came up with all sorts of bollocks about hunter gatherers and berries to justify it. Without bothering to do some basic desk research first... which would have made them realise that pink used to be for boys until relatively recently (first half 20th century). So the alleged girly preference for pink clearly is NOT innate and is a social construct.

You still get loads of people going on about 'ooh, boys and girls are different, my dd loves pink' though.

The thing is with this Swedish couple is that children actually like bounderies, they make them feel secure, really they are just playing out an experiment on their child.

Sleeping - my ds being tall isn't the point, the point is that's what people go on and on about. If he was a girl, I'm betting he wouldn't be told 'ooh, aren't you big and strong' at least once a day. Yes, he is, but there are plenty of tall and strong girls in his class and I don't hear so much comment about that in the playground.

And it's not anecdotal evidence about treating babies differently according to their supposed gender, the experiments have been done, repeatedly.

I think its completely bonkers as male and female brains are hardwired differently and I think important for a child to develop a sense of gender-identity.

no they aren't!

Seriously, the differences between any two brains (or individuals) are far greater than the differences between 100 male brains and 100 female brains (or individual men or women). I doubt any neurologist could look at 100 brain scans and predict accurately how many were female or male.

There are some differences that apply generally - women tend to have more connections between the two halves - but that doesn't tell you anything about an individual.

And an awful lot of the 'hardwiring' happens as you grow and respond to your environment and have experiences anyway. You brain doesn't remain exactly the way it was when you were born.

meh.

read some feminist mothering stuff, swedish dudes, and get over yourselves.

i find it interesting but ethically unsound. i admire their intent, but their methodology makes me feel a bit queasy.

my children all know which side of the alleged binary they occupy, but i'll do my damnedest to make sure they aren't defined solely in that context.

(and thanks for answering cammelia. i failed to find the words, despite the fact that dd2 was brain damaged at birth and spent the first three years redeveloping neural pathways...)

Poor kid, being called Pop.

I think Pop's a girl too - only because she desides by herself what to wear in the morning.

Boys usually couldn't care less

"I doubt any neurologist could look at 100 brain scans and predict accurately how many were female or male."

From what I have read yes they can, i have also read pathologists can tell the difference between a male and female brain.

I might have missed that bit but will Pop be told his or her gendre when he/she asks?

I do not remember for my eldest dCS, but DD4 is 3 1/2yo, she knows she is a girl obviously and whenever we meet new people, adults or children, she always asks if they are boys or girls. I suppose it helps her to identiie to something. I am very much against gender stereotype but having a clue of your gender, how can that be "cruel" ?

Gorionine - I think 'Pop' already knows there are physical differences between genders. It seems to me that the parents are trying to stop biased comments from other people by not disclosing their child's gender.
"Although Pop knows that there are physical differences between a boy and a girl, Pop's parents never use personal pronouns when referring to the child "

Halfday - Pop isn't the child's real name.
"Footnote: Pop is not the child's real name but is the name used in Svenska Dagbladet's interview with the child's parents from March 6th."

Well, I reckon we've only got about 6 more months to wait until pop lets the cat out of the bag, and the suspense will be over.

Then people will treat Pop as they would a girl or boy, and the first 3 years when no body knew, and pop couldn't have cared less will have been pointless.

That is what I am thinking too LynetteScavo!

Cammelia -- adult male and female brains are hardwired differently, but (a) not as differently as some reports like to suggest and (b) a good proportion of that seems to be down to brain plasticity, i.e. what happens between birth and adulthood to change the way in which the brain is wired.

The book Pink Brain, Blue Brain (which I recommended earlier on the thread) has some fascinating stuff on this from the point of view of neuroscience.

And is this really true? : "the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction".

you don't need to raise a child like this to disprove that long-discredited idea.

there are so many existing case histories a physical evidence to the contrary (identifiable brain-differences etc) ..men and women are not the same. a man can possess a female brain....(and vice versa) and will know it despite socialisation and having the correct physical apparatus (which will seem to him/her very wrong..)...

Social constructionism isn't a discredited theory!

Yes there are physical brain differences, hormonal differences, genetic differences which produce two sexes.

But you can't suggest that this is enough to explain gender.

Social constructionist theory suggests that context and culture gave a huge role to play in shaping gender mainly through the language we use and through access yo cultural tools such as computers and the power relations they engender.

Subtle messages about gender roles are taken in from birth and produce gendered children before they are even aware of sex differences.

let me rephrase: that gender is a wholly social construction.

however the point still stands - even with the social construction going totally in the opposite direction, the physical brain-gender wins out...

Poor pop, children will surely just be starting to learn what is expected of them and imitate behaviour as a girl or a boy after the age of two won't they? The child will be able to tell people what sex it is soon anyway.

Agree with the other poster who said it is better to challenge ideas like 'only women can be teachers' than to do experiments like this.