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8 year old girl admits lying about rape allegations

399 replies

FlyMeToDunoon · 13/05/2010 17:43

I felt really sad about this for more than one reason.
here

OP posts:
Allidon · 25/05/2010 06:42

Why shouldn't it be a debate about the age of criminal responsibility and how we deal with child defendants? What would you like the debate to be about dittany? There is nothing to debate about the crime itself, and I don't this case is an example of most rape cases, against adults or children, so this case can't really be extrapolated to the wider issue of the low level of rape convictions. We have no information about the background of the boys, so we can't debate the effect that has had on them. The only other issue is the adversarial nature of our court system, and many people have acknowledged the way this little girl was questioned was unfair.

FWIW, my opinions on child defendants extend to the Edlington case and the Bulger killers, I don't think any of those children should be demonised and I think an adult court, in public, was absolutely the wrong way to deal with it, although the resulting sentence in both cases was appropriate.

If these boys were 8, the physical crime would still have taken place, but no legal crime would have been committed. There is always going to be a cut off, and some offenders will always be underneath it. That said, I think for most violent crimes, 10 is a reasonable age for NT children, BUT there needs to a separate court for them. In the case of rape, I think it is difficult when the offenders are very young children. As I said earlier in the thread, their understanding of sex may still be very hazy, and compared to an obvious violent act, it is not so obvious that your actions result in the pain of someone else (not necessarily in this case, I am speaking generally).

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 07:46

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Allidon · 25/05/2010 07:52

That does sound like a much better way of dealing with child witnesses SGM. Would the jury then see the footage?

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 07:57

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dittany · 25/05/2010 08:49

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Allidon · 25/05/2010 09:07

I think what caused the boys to do this would be a fascinating, albeit difficult and sad, debate, but we have no information about their backgrounds yet, and maybe never will. Where do you think the idea came from, out of interest?

I agree victims' rights need protecting, but in the case of child offenders there does need to be more balance than with adult offenders. What if these boys were 8 or 9, officially a crime wouldn't have taken place. Do you think there needs to be something done about acts committed while under the age of criminal responsibility?

For debates sake, as my opinion on this is not yet set, the age of consent is 16. There is a lower age of 12, which is set as such because we believe children under this age are unable to understand the consequences and magnitude of sex, so up until 12 they are legally completely unable to consent. How is it then that we believe children of 10 and 11 are capable of understanding the consequences and magnitude of rape?

Allidon · 25/05/2010 09:10

And FWIW, I agree the media coverage of this case has been appalling, and a strange dichotomy to the tabloid coverage of the Bulger and Edlingtion cases (which was also appalling). I don't know why that is, or what can be change that, but holding trials of child offenders in private would help, surely? Perhaps limits on what details can be published from all trials?

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 09:15

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scurryfunge · 25/05/2010 09:18

Allidon, under 13s cannot consent to any sexual activity as they are unable to understand the consequences and magnitude of sex but Rape does not have much to do with sex at all...it is about power and control and hurting someone.

Allidon · 25/05/2010 09:23

But the question still stands, if children under 13 (sorry, I thought it was 12 for some reason) are unable to understand the consequences and magnitude of sex, how can we then say that they do understand the consequences and magnitude of forcing sex on somebody else? I am not necessarily saying they can't, as I said my opinion is still open, but the question is interesting and needs exploring imo.

ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:24

they are going to do this on the right stuff

he introduced it as "many people believe that this was a game of you show me yours and I'll show you mine that went a bit far and the boys should never have been prosecuted".

?

So even when convicted of attempted rape, people are still allowed to say on teh television that it was not attempted rape and the boys did nothing wrong?

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 09:28

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scurryfunge · 25/05/2010 09:33

Ten year olds are quite capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, including acts of violence towards another. If the boys had hit another child with a weapon, they would know full well it was wrong. Rape is the same....it's an act of violence.

(Allidon, you were right, 12 year olds cannot consent because they are under 13)

ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:33

wright stuff

I am really shocked at the way, after a guilty verdict, all of the commentary is on how no crime was really commited, these boys haven't done anythign wrong, they shoudn't be prosecuted in an adult court, snoffair.

Hardly anyone seems to accept that these boys have been convicted of attempted rape. Given that we know it is really really difficult to obtain a conviction for rape in this country, isn't it fairly clear that what these boys must have done to be convicted must have been pretty bad?

I don't get why this idea that it was a "game" is being propogated. They took her clothes off and forced her into sex acts in various different locations, threatening her. She had physical injuries. Anotehr child said they were "hurting" her. So why this desperate assertion over and over again that it was a "game"?

LeninGrad · 25/05/2010 09:36

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ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:37

exactly scurryfunge

If they had beaten her up would people be saying "oh it's just a game that went a bit far, those poor boys"

Am getting really angry now. This combined with the change in the law just brings home how society and govt really feel about these crimes

ie

they don't give a fuck
the victims are liars, or making a fuss about nothing

LeninGrad · 25/05/2010 09:38

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ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:42

he's at it again
"can a game of she me yours etc have criminal repercussions, should it ever have gone to court"

why are peope insisting that this was a game? they really think the CPS would have brought a prosecution for a game?

WHY? can anyone explain?

if I watch this i'm going to go bananas aren't i

Allidon · 25/05/2010 09:42

Scurry, I thought it was under 12 though, so up to 11, not under 13.

I don't have the Wright Stuff on, Wright plays Devil's advocate awfully well it must be said. What are the other panellists saying? I'd turn over but DS2 is watching Cars yet again.

I am also really confused about the media take on this, even though I agree with some of it WRT child defendants. Can you imagine the day after the Bulger or Edlington trials, the tabloids leading with "why did this ever come to court"? I don't understand what it is about this case that is being seen so differently to those. It seems that the media need to demonise one party in cases like this, it seems so odd that in this case it is the victim. Even if the verdict had been not guilty, my opinion was never that the girl lied, more that what happened had been potentially misinterpreted by adults. I never thought she was at fault, and I don't understand why this is what a lot of the media seem to be implying.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 09:43

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Allidon · 25/05/2010 09:46

Lenin, the BBC reported part of the younger boy's testimony: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8687426.stm

"Children have always hurt other children but we have to think about what children see now in terms of sex and violence and to what extent they will try and emulate at increasingly younger ages. I think we need to be talking to children about these things and teaching them about respecting their bodies and those of others and what is and isn't appropriate from a very young age. Without making them feel ashamed of course. "

Definately agree with this, and am really interested in whether we will find out anything about the background of the boys and potential causes for this.

ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:47

it's not on the wright stuff yet they're going to come to it

one of the panelists is that woman from teh tabloids (someone malone?) who just spews "the sun says" type stuff everywhere

i'm not sure if my blood pressure can take it but I'm giong to watch

scurryfunge · 25/05/2010 09:48

People find it so difficult to believe that children can commit crime. Is it an admission of failure in society if children kill, rape,GBH etc?.....much better to deny they must have knowledge and understanding as it sits more comfortably with society....and we can ignore the causes.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/05/2010 09:55

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ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 09:56

People believed the bulger case and that otehr recent one.

is the difference that in those cases the victims were boys? is it that our society fundamentally believes that most women lie about rape, and that belief has been extended to this girl

is that why the headlines shouted "girl lied about rape for sweets", as they were pleased to have it confirmed what they already knew about women and girls and rape?