Teacher accused of attempting to muder pupil

[stripeyknickersspottysocks]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8646506.stm

Shocking stuff. It does sound like maybe the teacher had some sort of breakdown after putting up with bad behaviour.

In a way I can see your dd's point, peaceflower.

We had a teacher in secondary who had lots of problems: he was an immigrant and his command of the language was uncertain, he had no ability and (as far as I could judge, no intention of keeping order)- Yes, it was still very bad of some of my friends to challenge him and bait him; I thought so at the time. But I also put some of the blame of him: he was an adult, he was paid to do a job, he had the responsibility to decide that things weren't working and to do something about it- he never did.

What would you think of a doctor who carried on doing operations that were too difficult for him, instead of admitting to his problems and getting help? Or a policeman who beat people to death during a demonstration because the shouting was stressing him out; we are not usually very understanding of that sort of thing. The answer must be that if you think you can't cope you walk away.

In this case, given the man's state of health and the fact that it may have affected his decision making, some responsibility must rest with his superiors: they should have kept an eye and known if things were getting out of hand.

I have taught some rough supply schools myself, and have had desks pushed at me (not a new development). I was very young in those days, not much older than the teens I taught. But I would still have done something if I felt I couldn't handle it. Or if I had been too ill to make a normal adult decision, then the school should have done it for me.

clemett - I thinkt he incident on that day however shows clearly that although he had been declared "fit for work" he very obviously was not. His actions were not of a normally acting adult, let's face it.

I don;t think anyone is blaming the children for his actions.

However I do feel that the pupils involved do need to consider their own actions and behaviour, and should learn lessons from this. Too many pupils are getting away with verbal and physical assaults of teaching staff every day, and schools do very little to support teachers when this happens - especially when it is verbal attacks.

By hoping the pupils invovled learn lessons it doesn't mean that people feel that the pupils were to blame - obviously the teacher should not have reacted like this (would any sane person, this man clear was not acting in a sane manner?).

Cory, you put it across very well. Thank you.

I think nobody comes out well here.

1. The teacher went postal having pushed himself too far.

1. The Senior Leadership Team put him with year 8 or year 9, known to be the most feral of age groups.

1. The pupils knew full well what they were doing and goaded him on and on.

1. A boy could have been killed as a consequence.

Lessons learned? Comprehensive school classes are too big, many school children are exhaustingly noisy and unsettled half the time, teachers are too often psychologically ill equipped to deal with it and are sometimes left stranded, management is all too often inadequate in such situations.

Another thought. The only reason this is headline news is because it wasn't the teacher being attacked. That happens more often than you would think, but is not generally reported.

I am training as a teacher, and my school is truly horrific in many respects, especially behaviour. Our demographic has a lot to answer for.

As a whole, I am a pretty chilled person...I find it hard to get irate about many things. And yet even I have encountered pupils who have raised the red mist in me to the point I have had to walk away before saying something I might regret. I have been told to fuck off (par of the course to be honest), called a c"*!, pushed, fronted up to, had my backside slapped, told I was bang up for it, been cornered, told I didn't know what I was talking about as I was just a teacher, been videoed on mobiles etc etc. This wasn't unusual. And what could I do about it? Diddly squat. I would report it, put it on their behaviour log online, they might go on report or in some instances they would get sent to 'the Unit'...where the ones with real behaviour issues got sent. But they would be back after a week. Parents wouldn't care, and we'd need their permission to keep pupils for after school detention. Even if we got that permission, how do we make them turn up? How do we make them care? Past a certain point it isn't possible.

As has been said, I truly do not condone what the teacher did. But, I don understand how he got to that point, and deplore that it was allowed to get that far for his sake and the pupil's. I have only been in the classroom for a few years and I already feel this way, I can only imagine what it must feel like to have put up with this day in, day out with no support and nowhere to turn. And no recourse on the pupils.

I do love my job though and some of the kids are great.

Oh, and hadn't he told them that he was worried he would hurt someone if put back in?

I remember reading that this man had been off work after suffering a stroke. He had been a teacher for many years, and before this and was very highly regarded by both pupils and staff. He clearly wasnt well enough to return to work. Its so very sad for both the boy and the teacher.

"I was taken aback by my dd's views. She is very quiet and reserved and would never join in with any bullying/baiting.

However, she just couldn't see the teacher's point of view at all. To her he is an an authority figure who should be able to keep control."

And that´s part of the "problem" I think-taking no responsibility and always blaming others.

When I was at school it was quite common for classes to try and 'break' teachers. It was just sensing which teachers had control, and which didn't. I was in one class (year 7) and the teacher just couldn't control us, we all made a decision to not bother listening to what she said. We just ambled around the room throing pencils at each other. She just shouited 'stop it and sit down', and in the end just shriekd 'just stop it', burst into tears and ran out the classroom.

This is just one event of many. If a class had supply teachers the class would just not listen to a word and it was viewed as a 'doss' lesson.

God knows why kids get up to such Lord of the Flies behaviour. The same classes would run riot with one teacher, yet behave impeccably with another. We certianly weren't scared of teachers that we behaved for, there was just an unquantifiable sense of authority from them.

It was certainly worse in years 7, 8 and 9, which were all mixed ability sets. It changed in year 10 and 11 because the classes were streamed, and the disuptive kids were sent to the educational unit.

It only took 1 or 2 kids behaving like animals to turn the whole class against the teacher in a passive way.

So this is not new. Not good, or anything to be proud of, but not new at all. I went to senior school in the early 90s.

I dont think there were many of us teachers who didn't read about this when it first happened and think "There but for the grace of God go I"

I had a reputation when I taught of being the hardest of the hard. I could keep the students we got from the Pupil Referral Units and the ones just out of Feltham under control. But I well remember the day when one 6 foot lad picked up a chair, not an ordinary classroom chair, an office type chair with wheels, and threw it at me. This was the day I had returned to work after a miscarriage.

Teachers have so few sanctions these days. You can't force them to attend detentions. You can't send them out, they just get sent back in again. You are not allowed to leave the class alone, they may damage equipment and/or each other. You can't expel them, it looks bad on the League Tables. etc etc. There comes a time when sheer force of personality fails. And when it does, the students know there is practically no comeback for them. They can do what they like with impunity.

diddl Thu 29-Apr-10 09:14:26
"I was taken aback by my dd's views. She is very quiet and reserved and would never join in with any bullying/baiting.

However, she just couldn't see the teacher's point of view at all. To her he is an an authority figure who should be able to keep control."

And that´s part of the "problem" I think-taking no responsibility and always blaming others."

I think there is another side to it too. Many children are still brought up to think that teachers are authority figures who are always right= with no ordinary human fallibilities. (remember the shocked posts we get on MN when someone fails to uphold the teacher's authority in front of their child)

To my dd, certainly, questioning any decision the teacher made (even if clearly illegal and dangerous) was unthinkable; it was simply not allowed at her school. Do you think someone like her would have a lot of understanding if one day a teacher showed himself full of human fallibility?

To her, this would seem illogical: either you accept that teachers are not always right or they had better always be right!

(not that my dd would bait anyone, she is too well brought up).

My Dad started teaching in what was then a very authoritative system (the teacher he did his teacher training term with regularly reduced A-level students to tears), which then changed into a system where students were on fairly relaxed terms with the teacher. What struck him was how much kinder the pupils were to the teacher after the change. In the old cane and humiliation days, according to him, pupils were also trying to put one over on him, to see if the teacher could really live up to the authority ideal and were like baying hounds at the first sign of weakness. The school in Goodbye Mr Chips is ruled by the cane- doesn't stop them from breaking any teacher who shows weakness.

Now it may well be that the pendulum has swung over too far in some places and that we need more discipline in the schools. But not too much discipline. Because in a system where Sir is always right, there can be no mercy for a Sir who is not right. And in a system with no discipline there will be no mercy for anyone. Balance.

I too have found this whole situation very sad. I am not condoning the behaviour of the teacher, but I CAN see how he could have got to the point of losing it (though maybe not so completely)

I've been teaching for 12 years, and have just returned to work properly after 3 years of extended maternity leave and part time/supply work. I am back to my old job as Head of Dept, and am generally having a pretty good time. The majority of KS4 and KS5 students remember me from before, so I've had no issues with them, but was expecting to have a harder time with KS3 - re-establishing myself and so on. 4 out of my 5 KS3 classses have been fabulous - I smiled at the end of my first day, and thought "great, I can still do this". BUT the fifth class have been horrendous, and I have no idea why. What bothers me about this whole situation (with this teacher, not with me specifically) is how random the children can be and how vehemently they will stick to their guns if they feel that the teacher "can't control" them. Why should it be a question of "control" in the first place? Why is it that some children don't already know how to control themselves? I'm talking about the ability to sit down, be quiet when asked, listen to teachers and do what's expected of them. The class I'm having problems with just won't be quiet. There are two of us in the room, but it takes such a long time to get on with things. This week, we covered about half the work on my lesson plan. One girl stormed out because she said she didn't want to do "about death" (we were doing poetry of WW1). This is after she'd declared that deaths of soldiers in WW1 were irrelvent because it happened so long ago!

Sorry - this has turned into a bit of a rant. I suppose my point is that I really do get fed up with the whole "teacher can't control us" stance. We're not zoo-keepers, for goodness' sake.

Interesting that the majority of people who have commented on this story on the Times website are in full support of the teacher. Bet it's a different story on the DM website.

I am suprised he was found not guilty in some ways - but is that due to his mental state? The jury were all agreed too, and quickly I beleive. The evidence and winess statements surrounding this must have been pretty damning of the situations leading up to it.

I am glad he will not be imprisoned over this. I don't feel that would have actually been of use to anyone TBH.

He will obviously never work again, at the very least never as ateacher.

I hope he recieves the medical attention he clearly needs.

I also hope the school learns from this incident and puts measures in place to prevent any more of their staff being placed in classes with such undisciplined children, without recall. I think they need some very strong and critical investigations into how they are addressing pupil behaviour int he school, and how they are monitring the well bein of their staff. The school clearly failed here.

TBH this level of class management should not be part of ANY teacher's job.

I think keeping discipline is harder today.

When at school I was in a tough class who could scent weak teachers and gave them a really rough ride - we were foul - but god forbid our parents ever found out! Not true now.

In fact today a parent vehemently disagreed with a member of staff giving her teenage son a lunchtime detention for late work - because he was a nice boy and others hadn't handed in work - (the last was partially true but they were on more severe sanctions!) And mine is considered a nice m/c school.

Dh's isn't. In his old form a 14yr old killed another boy with a knife, and the last teenager to try and physically assault dh was found murdered in some tit for tat feud. And actually dh's control over these classes is 2nd to none in his school.

Re this particular case, yes the class baiting this poor man are to blame - but could never have anticipated the appalling consequences. But more to blame are SMT: I wonder if they deliberately put him in front of this class and expected him to crack - as a means of getting rid of a once effective teacher. Have no doubt they have since been covering their backs.

My dd is in yr 9, and I have been trying to draw the attention of the school to, what I see as a huge problem in the making. They have a science teacher who, the majority of the class, spend the entire lesson goading and trying to break. Recently DD came home and told me that certain pupils were trying to make the teacher explode and were videoing it on their mobile phones, which they intended to edit, so that all that would be heard was the teacher 'losing it' so they could get her sacked. I was horrified obviously, and told the school. The next couple of lessons more senior members sat in on the lessons but this has once again stopped. One girl in her class was excluded for the third time this month for hitting a teacher this week. The behaviour in my opinion is far worse now and the children do push teachers too far. This is in top set groups too, which never used to happen.

He's been found not guilty? Didn't he hit someone repeatedly with a dumbell?

Erm - sounds like he was pushed to the edge but didn't he assault someone. Was it that the boy was lying or that the judge felt he was justified in doing so?

Why does the UK stand out in Europe for all this violence in its schools? With a few regional exceptions.

Coolfonz - i don't think the UK is any different to other places round the world TBH. Where education is free and widely available to all, and the norm, then I think pupils are the same over.

Dh remembers his exchange trip to Germany int he late 80s. He went to a german school a few days and e remembers being very shocked at the classroom behaviour and less of respect he saw there.

giveitago - he was found not guilty of having intent to murder or commit GBH, presumable because of his mental state. There is doubting that he committed a violent crime, just that the intent was not proven to tbe there.

He was found guilty of committing GBH, which is fair enough - yes he did it, but why & what drove him to it is clear enough

The rest of his life will not be nice.

I hope that the circumstances will be addressed.