I'm interested in a discussion about this - donating "abandoned" frozen embryos left in fertility clinics to infertile couples

[Jacksmama]

This is the article.

When I read it this past weekend, my first thought was, "wow, what a huge can of worms". At the very least, a main thing that would have to be established is what are the criteria for determining that these frozen embryos have been abandoned.

Anyone up for a discussion?

Don't most places charge for frozen embryos to be kept? Don't they also make women (and men if part of a couple) sign documents saying what they are prepared to have happen to the embryos? They did with me.

That is a really interesting idea. I agree with what you are saying - how would you define "abandoned"?

Crazy though to think of all those frozen embryos just sitting there.

ok - so that's Canada. maybe it's different there.

DF in the article it mentioned that but it says that most clinics don't destroy them even if the fees are waived.

... and that article eally irritates me with talk of abandonment and "an unnatural process of selection".

sounds like a good idea to me, even if it has some major potential complications. It could still help many people.

I think the idea has some potential. From the perspective of infertile couples, it must seem like a godsend.

BUT.

Could you imagine a scenario where the biological parent of a frozen embryo runs into a child they are sure is theirs? If, say, parents forgot (unlikely, I know) they'd had frozen embryos somewhere, or assumed they'd been destroyed, and then saw a child somewhere who is the spitting image of one of their children? Totally unlikely, I know, but - imagine.

Also, how would anyone decide which embryo to pick? I mean, if there are several dozen to choose from - would an infertile couple be able to select which embryo they want, male or female, or be able to select for hair and eye colour?

I wish I'd taken a medical ethics course in university, I find all this pretty interesting.

They should be used for stem cell research instead which may benefit the couple (or the couples other children ) they were created from one day as well as others.

Just as I believe people should have to opt out of being a donor rather than opting in, it's for the benefit of others.

The first paragraph says abandoned embryos may be handed over to different would-be parents but the from the rest of the story it seems they're only going to do this with consent - not when the genetic parents have lost touch with the clinic.

The Canadian clinics have the right to destroy the abandoned embryos if the parents stop paying for storage, according to their contract, but they seem reluctant even to do this.

They wouldn't be allowed to choose new parents for embryos over here, I think. IIRC there have been a couple of cases in this country where a woman's only eggs have been fertilised with her then partner's sperm and frozen, then the couple broke up. The courts have not allowed these women to use the embryos when the ex withdraws his consent later, even though at the time of the fertilisation he consented to the use of his sperm.

So I don't think courts here would allow the use of embryos by couples unknown to the genetic parents without consent at the time of use, even if they consented years before when the embryos were frozen.

Does anyone get this bit?

"Those women who find neither option [destroying the embyos or giving them to someone else] appealing can have their thawed embryos placed in their reproductive tracts, where there is no chance of pregnancy"

how can there be no chance of pregnancy if the embryos are alive when you put them in?

I find this interesting as DH and I have 3 frozen embryos left. We don't think we want anymore children and would certainly have considered donating them to an infertile couple. However there are two things stopping us:

1. We're not allowed because DH is a haemophiliac and so any girls born will be carriers and the HFEA won't allow it according to the clinic

2. It would be very difficult to discover 18 years olds who are wholly our biological children and the full siblings of our children but have been born to and brought up by someone else. I think I would feel as though I had abandoned them.

Most likely option at the moment is to donate them to research projects although that too sits uncomfortably.

We have one frosty and I am in absolute turmoil over what to do with it, chances are it wouldn't survive the defrosting process, I don't actually want anymore children and yet I cannot bring myself to donate it or throw it away, so it's staying in the freezer for now.
It would be like your child being adopted to an unknown, the HEFA child protection form we filled out to decide if we were suitable consisted of have you ever been convicted of child abuse, no, right you're fine then. I'd hope the process would be more detailed if they do go ahead with this idea.

139 I think they'd just put it in without preparation eg not a FET.

This is sensitive for me. We had frosties and weren't allowed to adopt until they were dealt with.

Only 3 survived the defrost,all 3 were in a very bad way but implanted so I could move on.They resulted in my lovely twin boys.

Basically I don't think couples should forget they always have the potential to be your child and it shouldn't be gone into lightly. I think counselling before should be mandatory and no money what so ever should be exchanged, definitely not to clinics.

I think it should be regarded in the same way as adoption is as you are essentially giving your child away to another couple. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think this fact should be swept to one side just because they are embryos and not a fully grown baby.

Wow Mila, that's great!! How lovely [misty-eyed]. What does FET mean?

I asked a girlfriend who is a medical researcher what she thought, and her opinion is that when frozen embryos have been abandoned (truly abandoned, parents not to be found, no payments for x amount of time) they still cannot ethically be donated to someone else, they should be destroyed. Hmmm. I don't think I agree with that.

Agree with MilaMae, 139. The amount of drug-taking required for FET is still significant, so they probably see a negligible chance of success with no preparation or supporting drugs post transfer.

Very sensitive for me too, but for the opposite to MilaMae. We had excellent IVF results but one of my twin boys died. Though I have embryos in storage I don't want to risk another child suffering a premature birth and death, and I'm supposed to be telling the clinic what I want to do.

To me they are not just a "clump of cells", so part of me would donate to help another couple, part would prefer they helped research, but most of me wishes they were not there tormenting me with the need to decide.

I'm sure some of those "abandoned embryos" belonged to couples like us, and it smacks to me of a poor system of regulation and lazy clinics not keeping in touch with ex-patients.

Is that entirely fair to the clinic? I mean, people do move, across the world sometimes, and it may not occur to them to let the clinic know their new address.

Irreplaceable so sorry . Could you have them implanted 1 at a time or are they in 3s in the straws like mine were?

I don't understand why they freeze them in batches and not one at a time,that is something they should consider I feel as many women would not want the risk of a multiple birth.

I also think they shouldn't be charging for storage. On my old clinic board there are frequent posts from women who can't afford the fees. It puts added pressure on a couple especially if they're already broke from rounds of IVF.The money clinics make I think they could stretch to funding the storage after all one big container holds a lot of straws.

Just to mention DS

Gah. DD helping! Just wanted to say that DS was conceived following a FET but carried out on a natural cycle so no drugs at all. Very straightforward. He was also on his own in a straw (the remaining ones are a 1 and a 2) as I'd said that I wasn't prepared to have 2 transferred so it can be done.

Agree I wish I didn't have to decide what happens to the remaining embryos even though I'm 99.9% sure I don't want another baby...

We had a natural cycle too, however we also had no fertility issues whatsoever, long story, but still only one out of two hatched into a baby so still no guarantees.

Jacksmama - people don't just suddenly up sticks and move. If a clinic does what it's supposed to do and keeps in contact with patients about embryos in storage, it should be up to date on where they are. They have a moral responsibility too, and none of the emotional difficulties. My clinic's approach to admin has been very lax - saying that based on others' experiences not just my own.

MilaMae - thanks. I had one round of FET after my son's death, 2 defrosted 1 transferred. But I just couldn't go through watching my baby suffer and die again, and it's very painful having to make a decision on those embryos asap.

As for natural cycle - it's amazing how clinics differ.

Possibly when they say 'reproductive tract' they mean the vagina. I think this is what they do in Ireland as the church influence over the state there means that all embryos resulting from each egg harvest have to be 'used' not frozen or destroyed. So one or two embryos are implanted into the womb and the rest are put into the vagina.