Iknow its the DM, I know its Liz Jones, but for once I am in comlpete agreement..

[SixtyFootDoll]

I think she is a MN convert

I was just reading that, and thinking how much I agree with her!

I agree - but why do parents let their little children watch all those music videos on TV?

Completely agree.

A friend of mine at university said, during a chat about what we were hoping to do when we graduated, said, 'Have breast implants'. She seemed about 75% serious. She is 21. (And beautiful, and well-endowed, not that it would make any difference if she were neither). The girls in my group who don't spout this nonsense tend to be the Christians. I can't believe in Christianity, but I do sometimes wonder if it offers one of the few structured refuges for teenagers from this sort of crap.

I agree too in general, but, I do think it's wrong to say that there are no women out there who aren't conforming to the stereotype. There are. She laments where is the Bjork of today - she's still here and still doing her thing. Look at La Roux (whether or not you like it) - very successful, completely refuses to conform visually, no flesh on show. It can be done, it's just that the mainstream sexualised/victim visual concept for female stars is one that a lot of women will go along with to try to get success, and so as Papadopoulos says it becomes normal, girls copy it etc. But don't do the ones who don't a disservice. They show that actually talent and individuality can win through.

Obviously it is a massive problem, not denying that and I'm very glad it's making its way into the news etc as an issue now.

"Shakira, a pop superstar and the fourth richest singer in the world
"

really, so elton john, madonna, kylie, paul mccartney, even the damn spice girls? that can't be true, can it?

sorry, will start a post in saleb twaddle in my normal name
and i agree with OP but more at this!

I completely agree, even DH, a redblooded heterosexual male often says that most women in music videos look like lap dancers/strippers as opposed to talented performers.

On principle I never agree with anything that LJ writes.

she's the fourth richest female singer in the world - not person.

choosyfloosy - à propos of Christianity as a refuge, I am reading Antonia Fraser's The Weaker Vessel about women in 17th century England, and she makes the point that with the Reformation, English women were denied the traditional alternative to marriage, the convent. And she paints a picture of a convent being a rather pleasant, civilised, all female environment that actually offered quite a lot that marriage didn't!

I often agree with her comments about the fashion industry and the whole size zero thing. She is often very self-absorbed and fashion is her whole life and only a small part of most people's but she's not ridiculous and she often gets a bad press. There's no point disagreeing with her 'because I always disagree with her'.

yy Bonsoir, I'm sure that's right; although some reformed/Protestant denominations had some openness to women as prophets or leaders from the start I believe, the representation of women in the power structure of the convent was not replaced, in the same way that the opening of single sex schools and colleges to mixed entry reduced opportunities for senior female academics.

I suppose this is the argument for the hijab/niqab as well, which I do find partially persuasive. I dislike the idea that we either cover up completely or embark on cosmetic surgery aged 21, but if plastic surgery is sold to us as a way of buying economic advantage in the marketplace, the idea of visibly refusing to take part in the transaction gets more attractive.

[Googles for 'modern nun's habits']

I agree with her too. My DH says that what is on MTV now is basically what he was thrilled to see on Eurotrash as basically soft porn when he was a young teenager.

It makes me worried about what things will be like in 15 years when my child is in their mid teens - full sex on TV? Or will we go the other way and choose to self censor?

marineiguana - I think you took that point about Bjork too literally - she means where is this generation's version of Bjork, not where is she herself. As with all generations, they are not generally over-enamoured of the popstars that were around when their parents were "hip". So, every generation needs a new version of people like Bjork, Tracy Chapman etc.

I hate modern R&B/hiphop (particularly) videos and won't watch them - they are like porn, it's abysmal that they're not better regulated!

Yes I get that, I also mentioned someone who's come up recently. My point about bjork was that being incredibly talented, uncompromising and absolutely refusing to conform to any look except her own has given Bjork huge success and longevity so that's why the original Bjork is still here making music. But, we still have people starting out today with the same attitude as well. (There isn't a "Bjork of today" because she's so unique but there are women who are making it in music without tearing their kit off)

Totally agree. I get unbelievably depressed watching MTV when I go to the gym. As I've said millions of times before on MN, there seems to be rules on MTV about this:

• Women must be naked/in pants/swimwear
• Women are only allowed to writhe around
• Men get to wear whatever the hell they want, and do whatever the hell they want.

I have also raised this on MN before and been called a prude for objecting to woman constantly poncing about on videos nearly nude.

I think some people really do not believe that children can absorb this sort of thing. I had an argument with DH about this about 2 years ago - he would switch on the music channels when the DD2 were about (4 and 2 then). I didn't think it was appropriate, he thought I was over-reacting and 'the children don't watch it anyway.' I also didn't like him watching graphic news reports when the children were in the room. He discovered I was right the day an apparently oblivious DD1 looked up and asked 'Mummy why is the man crying? Is it because his boy is dead? Who killed him' (It was a report on the death of a soldier in Iraq and they were interviewing the man's father).