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Should non-british ppl convert to british living???

124 replies

AnnaInManchester · 12/07/2005 14:23

e.g. wearing western clothes, speaking english in public

OP posts:
SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2005 15:15

agree re traditions, but what british traditions have been stopped in case they cause offence? (other than some orange order marches, which don't count as half the point of them is to cause offence)

northerner · 12/07/2005 15:17

What about nativity plays in primary schools? I've heard of cases where this doesn't happen.

Flossam · 12/07/2005 15:18

That is what I mean really.

oliveoil · 12/07/2005 15:18

Yes, Winter Festival instead of Christmas etc.

Flossam · 12/07/2005 15:20

Not putting up happy xmas etc.

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2005 15:21

the winterval thing was birmingham council and I think I remeber reading they're going to revert to xmas this year.

nativity plays - actually that's not the kind of thing I meant. being a religious thing I'm not bothered at all if they don't do them. Now if they were to stop doing any kind of special play/entertainment at all at christmas, or if they were to stop showing a christmas carol/mary poppins on telly at christmas, that would be a different thing.

Blu · 12/07/2005 15:21

Flossam - I have absolutely NO problem with people seeking others who may share some experiences on MN. MN is a wide and very mixed community - all of us communicate on the majority of boards, but there are specific centres of interest that attract specific initiatives - special needs meet-ups / muslim mums meet-ups....I just don't feel threatened by it. It's not so much that I am EXCLUDED but that that particular interest group isn't within the things that I DO do, iyswim. I certainly don't see it as racist!

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2005 15:22

I remember being told off at sunday school for writng "xmas" instead of christmas.

Blu · 12/07/2005 15:23

But they HAVEN'T stopped doing any of those things!

Flossam · 12/07/2005 15:23

But if you were a white British you couldn't start a thread asking for a meet up with them - could you? And why should you. It shouldn't matter. I just don't like it, sorry.

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2005 15:23

blu - agree. in fact I was going to post that. Much as I've slagged off other expats on this thread I don't see anything wrong with an english toddler group, for example.

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2005 15:24

flossam - x-posted.

not in britain, no. but then being british in britain doesn't particularly imply any shared experience, where it does in Spain.

Janh · 12/07/2005 15:27

I think it is fair for people living outside their own culture to look for others from it to meet up with, Flossam; there are social groups for ex-pats all over the world. That really isn't racist, it's cultural.

aloha · 12/07/2005 15:36

I certainly don't think people should all conform to one cookie-cutter version of Britishness. Of course not. And I can entirely understand why people would seek out others with a similar background to themselves to speak their own, familiar language and enjoy their customs and celebrations. If I were to live in France I would still want to eat familiar foods sometimes, drink tea and watch English TV, as well as drink wine, eat local food and try to learn good French.
I do think it would be preferable if everyone attempted to learn English and was reasonably interested in and enthusiastic about the country they have chosen to live in. I certainly cannot imagine why anyone would actively choose to live here if they thought that the modern British way of life (ie legal and generally accepted homosexuality, equality for women etc) was entirely wrong and evil. I'm not crazy about those views personally - whoever holds them.
Obviously you do have the right to want to change and reform your country, but not to despise it. I think exactly the same applies to British people choosing to live abroad.
And if we are to insist everyone wears western clothes, we'll have to bang up that Liz Hurley for all her saris, not to mention Cherie Blair.

Blu · 12/07/2005 15:42

Flossam - but the point is that 'white british' is still the 'majority' - still the 'status quo' in this country - whatever people feel about threats to xmas cards or whatever. As someone said below, they love it when another expat arrives in their french home because they can talk about britain and eat cadbury's chocolate. Like with special needs, there are specific aspects of living in britain as a muslim, or someone in a multi-racial family or you just feel a bit homesick and would like to chat to another mum in spanish (these are 'calls' i have seen out on MN) - and i think it's great for people to be able to come together and share common experiences within the wider integrated community to which they also belong and contribute..

saadia · 12/07/2005 15:49

There is a very interesting book called "Imagined Communities" by Benedict Anderson which exposes how ideas about nationhood and nationalism are completely pointless and unintelligent. Basically, as the title suggests, it's all in the mind.

The way I see it, no-one has any control over where and into what culture they are born. It is a pure accident. To take that accident as the basis for a belief that one culture is superior to all others is, I think, really offensive.

monkeytrousers · 12/07/2005 16:04

I agree Blu. The white British race (not that it's thought of as a race itself too much) is the dominant culture here.

It's a fallacious argument to call this reverse racism. It's identical to men's groups who cry foul of women?s rights. They'd like others to believe that women only receive those rights at the loss of some of their own. That's just rubbish, of course.

WigWamBam · 12/07/2005 16:04

I hate these "light the blue touch paper then retire" threads - original poster makes a statement, without elaborating on what she thinks or why she's asking, doesn't give her own viewpoint on the issue, sometimes doesn't even ask a clear question so you don't know what the issue really is, and then wanders off and waits for the fights to start.

binkie · 12/07/2005 16:12

Deeply agree WWB. 'Tis lavenderrrrrrrrrr alll over again.

Blu · 12/07/2005 16:15

well said, wwb. I shall shut up now until Annainmanchester comes back!

edam · 12/07/2005 16:25

Agree with Aloha, as usual.

Except that I do feel strongly that the authorities/the public should not be prevented from criticising things that, in this country, we see as wrong or illegal, even if the people who carry them out claim they are 'cultural' or 'religious' practices.

I'm thinking of, e.g. female circumcision - until very recently there's been very little attempt to protect girls from immigrant communities who are subject to this, although it is unlawful here. There's been very little activity on the part of police or social services to prevent girls being sent out of the country to be assaulted. Or to educate immigrant communities into understanding that it is illegal.

And the play Bheti (not sure of spelling) that was cancelled in Birmingham due to violent and threatening mobs of young Sikh men. This was a play criticising the treatment of women - yet the police allowed violent disorder (a crime) and threats of violence (another crime) to force its closure. And a woman Home Office minister connived at that decision and refused to condemn the mob or take action to ensure the play could be performed and people who wanted to see it could do so. Seems sexism, or hatred of women, is seen by some people as OK when it's practised by people who use cultural excuses.

As for nativity plays, I do think it's important that immigrants to any country are encouraged to understand the culture of that country - particularly schoolchildren growing up in that country. Our history for the last 1500 years has been dominated by Christianity. You can't really understand our laws, our history, our art, literature and culture, without some basic understanding of Christianity. Doesn't mean you have to become a Christian, or be taught that Christianity is the one true religion. But you should be encouraged to learn something about it because although things are changing, it has been the dominant force in the development of this country and Europe (and North and South America and Australasia).

PeachyClair · 12/07/2005 17:00

I think it's useful to spak a language for basic reasons- emergencies, that sort of thing- but why would we want anyone to change? We all need to learn fromeach other, regardless of our cultural origins, and find a way of being OURSELVES. if that involves expressing our faith, hobbies, culture, whatever- then OK. It should all be about individuals, not cultural 'groups'.

twirlaround · 12/07/2005 17:08

I think it is right to integrate into society if you choose to live in a foreign country. So you should learn the language and you should interact with the natives. You should understand basic history and politics and "swear allegiance to the flag" like they do in America. You should respect democracy.

triceratops · 12/07/2005 17:15

I think that people coming to this country bring a valuable and interesting cultural contribution. But if they can't speak the language and they live in a ghetto and they send their children to a single faith school they will not be able to share it with the rest of us. I worry about segregation in our communities as I think it leads to misunderstanding and resentment.

I hate it when the media refer to someone as a "community leader" when the person they are refering to only leads the part of the community who is the same faith/colour as they are.

AnnaInManchester · 12/07/2005 17:28

several of u have said that i must have started this thread to cause trouble. Just to set the record straight, I HAVE NOT started this thread to cause trouble, and thanks to people like HandleMeCarefully, who actually thinks that I may have started this thread for some other reason other than to start trouble. Handlemecarefully, I have noticed that u always consider the viewpoints of everyone, you're such a cool person!!!

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