Could not being able to carry a dagger ever be seen as discrimination?

[Rantagonist]

The first Sikh judge Sir Mota Singh, believes it is discrimination that some Sikhs have been denied entry into certain venues, and a schoolboy from going to school, with their Kirpans, which is a ceremonial dagger.

He said he's carried his for 35/40 years, into places which include Buckingham Palace, and that it is a requirement of the Sikh religion.

But shouldn't this be a case of one rule for all? Why should schools and the police for example, who are trying to do everything they can to keep knives and violence out of schools, make an exception for a dagger, even if it could be argued to be a requirement of a religion.

This to me is counterproductive to the laws we try to enforce in this country. I don't expect anyone to be carrying a blade of any kind unless they have a legitimate reason because of the trade they're in. And why should one group of people believe an exception to that law should be made for them on such an important issue?

Is this discrimination? Or one group being apart from the rest of society by wanting the laws that apply to everyone else to be set aside for them?

"Er excuse me I'm very tolerant of most things but not of knives being carried around willy nilly."

That's not what this is about.

The law allows anyone to carry a knife if they have good reason. No one's asking to change that.

The law allows places such as schools to ban certain legal objects from being taken into their premises. No one's asking to change that.

What this Judge has said is that when taking decisions about banning legal objects places such as schools be more understanding of Sikhs.

No changes to the law (unlike what the Pope's getting up to at the moment).

well foten obv they get a conditional discharge but its a huge leap of sentencing
have had bloke who took ( get this) a GARDENING knife ( he said) into a crown court, and was suprised when they were concerned.
another guy who got off his head and waved a knife AT a hitherto friendly neighbour ( so menacing with it - more serious) and was facing prison - no previous, upright citizen

It's not a knife. It is a ceremonial object that just happens to be called a 'dagger' because of its historical useage. It is blunt. It is sheathed. It is worn inside clothes.

There are no 'kirpan' attacks in the Uk.

Probono, only 10% IIRC of Sikhs are Kalsaandcarry the K'sso no, if you were attacked by a Sikh they wouldn't necessarily be carrying a knife. 90% in fact would not.

it looks knifey on google images

BadgerPaws you're right. Replica guns are not exactly illegal to own. Just illegal to sell, manufacture or import. I thought they'd gone all the way on that one.

Now people are saying these are tiny and would fit on a keyring. I have trouble with that since if that were the case they wouldn't be discussing this.

This picture is from a Sikh Website and it looks bigger than a nail file to me.

I may get one. Only for self defence though like they were designed for.

i think intent is obv relevant and as you an see by the link if its not visible or used to intimidate then its a lesser sentence
but you do have to try anc create some consistency in sentencing and youd be hard to say that is not a bit knifey!

no,lauriefairycake....no kirpan attacks in uk....yet!!

No Onager,I said tiny ones that fit on a keyring are available, that there are many types.

And that those ones should be encouraged as a middle road so that Sikh Khalsa members may continue to adhere but peoplenot feel threatened by the idea that someone is carrying teh Kirpan.

Though I have to say, I do find Sikhs peaceable and have never flet threatened.

Yes yes do see your point if that was being said but it's not quite an accurate representation of what's being said.

"Sikkhs should be allowed to wear their ceremonial daggers - known as Kirpans - to school and other public places, Britain's first Asian judge has said. "Not allowing someone who is baptised to wear a Kirpan is not right," Sir Mota told BBC Asian Network."

He wants a blanket amnesty. He wants "good reason" to include baptism as a Sikh in all cases.

I think this is very different from cub scouts and campers. Cub scouts and campers aren't generally going to school with knives every day.

Well Tiffany since they've been carrying them for 150 years and Sikhs have been living in the UK for at least the last 70 I think you have very little to worry about with regards to this issue.

Most people don't know they carry them - this will be because they don't wave them around. And they don't attack people with them.

Onager PMSL- that's a fullceremonial get up! No different from someone wearing a sword in uniform at a ceremony or aything- hardly regular day to day.

The five K'sare:

'Kesh - uncut hair and beard, as given by God, to sustain him or her in higher consciousness; and a turban, the crown of spirituality.

Kangha - a wooden comb to properly groom the hair as a symbol of cleanliness.

Katchera - specially made cotton underwear as a reminder of the commitment to purity.

Kara - a steel circle, worn on the wrist, signifying bondage to Truth and freedom from every other entanglement.

Kirpan - the sword, with which the Khalsa is committed to righteously defend the fine line of the Truth'

(had tolook that up, used to have that memorised- must be losing my touch).

Each item has symbolic meanings atathced- so the kara also represents the consistency of fiath in a circle for example, but I cannot think of anything that would cease to be represented by a symbolic kirpan as I described.

But then it's five years now since I sat that exam. Could do with a bit of revision.

I mean, theoretically it's a religious requirement for a Christian to evangelise pretty enthusiastically a lot of the time. I don't think that would be allowed in school.

Well I've had a fully loaded automatic pistol for ages and not killed and no one knows about it. So it must be legal now for me to own it.

I own a kitchen knife and not killed and no one knows about it. So it must be legal for me to own it.

Thankfully it is.

"I mean, theoretically it's a religious requirement for a Christian to evangelise pretty enthusiastically a lot of the time. I don't think that would be allowed in school".

Presumably because in school you're supposed to be working ?

This argument might hold if kirpan wearing Sikhs spent entire lessons waving them around and wanting to discuss/convert anyone to wearing them.

To be fair, I don't think the argument that they are carried for self defence or that they're conceled, stacks up.

Most children who carry knives, as far as I know, carry them because self defence, because everyone else is carrying them so they feel they have to as well.

It might just be me, but the fact that they're conceled makes me feel a bit more uneasy about them. I'm not sure any police officer stopping and seraching a yoof in the middle of London would feel completely at ease with a conceled weapon, regardless of whether it was ceremonial, blunt, or not technically a dagger.

RIght Pro,which is why we need a dialogue here,somedecent human talking.

Find examplesofmidleroadsthat can be shared.

If you (Sikh p[erson) carry a harmless littleversion of the kirpan as per.... then wewill try and educate our children what it actuall represents so the fear is diminsihed.

It is significant that tehre have been kirpan incidents, becuase the ten per cent of Sikhs who join the Khalsa and the ones who willmost likely follow the rules and stick to that line of self defence. It would be les so if there was a blanket all Sikhs should.... but it ahs never been the case that all Sikhs join the Khalsa. They are a self selected bunch.

Gotta go, toddlerwith demands. There's almost always a happy compromise though,when people talk and the Khalsa do deserve some credit for their peaceable nature..

"BadgerPaws you're right. Replica guns are not exactly illegal to own. Just illegal to sell, manufacture or import. I thought they'd gone all the way on that one."

I'm not too sure about strictly "replica" guns but decommissioned ones are certainly still legal so I doubt that replica's have been banned.

As with knives the key point is the reason why you are carrying one and exactly what you are doing with it.

"He wants a blanket amnesty. He wants "good reason" to include baptism as a Sikh in all cases."

"Good reason" does already include being a Sikh. If the police stop a Sikh and find a Kirpan they will probably accept that he's got a good reason to have it on him and leave him be. Exactly the same as if I were heading camping.

This judge isn't trying to change the law.

He just thinks that places should allow Sikhs to carry a Kirpan when they consider what legal objects they restrict on their premises.

Which is nothing to do with the law.

That said I don't entirely agree with him though.

(compromise available, not always taken obviosuly)

I think if there is a knife ban in a school is should be blanket, whether the person is unable to use it or not. The real knife users are stupid enough to think it's ok for him then it's ok for me. And how can a school really check if a pupil is baptised?

maybe none reported laurie...thing is,it only takes one now to be misused in some way....and what do you think will happen

they are common knowledge now....all it will take is one troublemaker to abuse them,or someone to suddenly take to wearing one for the wrong reason

its going to cause more trouble now by drawing attention to them

Baptism in Sikhism confers a surname- Kaur for females, Singh for males. it'sniotlike Christianity where there is no noticeable sign of membership-also tehre are the other symbols including the uncut hair usually worn under a turban.

Surely tehy've been common knwoledge for decades?

I knew about them from Somerset-Shire county primnmary,agood 20 yaers before actually meeting anybody who was Sikh

BethNoireNewNameForPeachy, Was trying to discover what size they are. That picture was supplied by the Sikh website and they have papers on there about working within the law (Australia not here). Now they describe incidents where the police called the kirpan 'an intimidating weapon' so at least some must wear a large one.

LaurieFairyCake, I don't think it works to say that all Sikhs are nice therefore it is ok or that they have been doing it a long time so it is ok.