Obama in trouble

[Strix]

I know that virtually no one here will agree with me, but I just want to say YIPPEE!!!!!
And in Massachusettes no less. Who'd have guessed?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8470187.stm

"It's funny. If the UK decided to revamp it's medical system, I bet hardly anyone in America would care."

Of course they won't care, and probably they won't know anyway, you hardly get access to international news and the few ones you get are normally patched up by the media so everybody continue thinking the world worships America.

I don't think it's a good thing that the US wouldn't care is it?

A national health service is hardly socialism. It is the foundation of a real democratic country though.
I thought Obama was pretty clear about his intentions re reforming the health system, didn't the americans take him seriously?

And of course we are interested in the US policies as they nearly always have an impact on Europe and developing countries etc

Gosh, from reading this thread, I get the impression that all Americans think/act/(not)care the same.

Down with Democracy and all hail King Obama. (that is what you want, right? contradictions of opinions, especially from the natives don't seem welcome here as WE KNOW BETTER).

I'm being entirely saracastic as I find the level of this discussion on this subject mostly based on bias rather than understanding. I agree the US health system needs reform.

But, is health reform in the USA really over??? Has the newly elected senator really said he's killing the bill? Maybe the people of MA are pissed off about the bankers bailout? job losses? rising taxes? Afganistan? and the impression that they have more to lose than gain with the health care reform?

My point is that if Americans were going round telling other countries how they should be more like Americans there would be uproar. But, for some reason, you can not see that your way is perhaps not what Americans want. And because of that you ask: "Why are Americans so blind to the actual facts staring them in the face? Why are you so wedded to a particular ideology you would rather see people die than admit the facts might not actually prove it to be true?"

Perhaps your way, which works for you, is not what Americans want for America. So maybe, Edam, you could show a tad bit of respect when talking about "the Americans". All Americans are not just like me. If they were we would be talking about President Guiliani.

Health care in America is awful.

It has the highest per capita spend yet infant and maternal mortality rates are terrible. According to the CIA factbook, the US rank only 46th in terms of infant mortality.

I am currently paying over $800 a month for health insurance. My dh is struggling to find work here despite being a highly qualified professional and meanwhile, we're panicking over how on earth to pay for this insurance. And no, we don't qualify for any of the government programs.

People are really into charity here. But that all comes down to a popularity contest and the rich being able to be bountiful, picking and choosing their causes (helping their fellow churchgoers or donating to that lovely young lady whose house burnt down). God help any non-white working class because no-one else is.

This hatred of socialism is mad. Every street corner is full of homeless people. But never mind, it won't affect you, eh? Just build your walls a bit higher to keep them out...

Mmmm I was under the impression that Americans have been gently encouraging other countries to be more like americans for the last 60 yrs .

Strix, Carmen's made my point - the US spends more on healthcare than any other nation, yet has far more dead babies and other avoidable deaths to show for than most other developed countries.

What I really don't understand is why so many Americans peddle myths about state healthcare being expensive or inefficient when the truth is a. the reverse and b. staring them in the face. I think it was the Yanks who made the term 'denial' popular? Certainly seems to apply here.

Btw, even if someone in the US has decent insurance, they may well suffer from an avoidable illness/injury/death because the system encourages healthcare providers to carry out unnecessary procedures.

Edam, I am under the impression you have not been to a doctor in the US, but rather have read up on the statistics. My personal experience is not what you describe in your last post. The quality of medical care I have always received through my 30 or years in the United States has always been superior to that received here in the UK.

The NHS (also my personal experience) is not a shining example of efficiency. (their insistance to communicate by post rather than telephone, for example)

I have several times approached our GP about somethign and been told "We don't do that" on something that would have gotten immediate attention in the states.

Strix - why don't you think the state should be involved in healthcare? Is private medical care affordable - in the US for example?

Are you happy that he's in trouble - I'm not - I think he's a decent guy but expectations of him are way too high.

No, I haven't been to a doctor in the US, but I've talked to an awful lot of them through work. And I deal with a lot of health policy so understand international comparisons.

The evidence is clear, and it's those facts that are relevant when you talk about state-funded healthcare being expensive or inefficient - it simply isn't when you compare it to the US system which is the most expensive in the world and has very poor outcomes to show for it.

No doubt some people in the US do get a Rolls Royce service (although many others get far worse). But, as a patient, would you realise if your doctor is sending you for a test that is actually unnecessary?

I am no fan of Obama's politics, generally speaking. So, yes, I'm happy if his political future is in trouble. Wouldn't, of course, wish any harm to him on a personal level.

It's not just about Healthcare. I believe that government's purpose is to do those things which private industry and the people cannot do for themselves. Things like education and armed services. Whilst, the current system needs some adjustments, I do not believe putting it under the control of the government will be helpful in terms of either quality of service or the cost to run it.

Basically, I believe in small government.

Strix - glad your experience in the US has been great but can you say it's replicated across all social groups there? Are you content that a large proportion of your fellow citizens (I'm assuming that you're american - sorry if I've got it wrong) don't have access to what you have access to.

Interesting that you think the state has a role in education but not health. Why the distinction?

Basically Strix, with due respect I am getting the impression that you are afraid the quality of healthcare you have become used to in the US is likely to diminish markedly if the system changes how Obama wants it to.

This is understandable but see-through conservatism at its worst (sorry)

It might be great for you and others in a similar financial position but this is at a huge cost to those who can't even afford co-pay or insurance...don't you see that?

A few people get a great service, but most don't...it's not fair.

There is a fundamental difference between the UK and the USA, we see it as our role to look after those who are less fortunate e.g. out of work etc. Americans see it as they live in a land of opportunity and people should take the chances as they appear to get the best out of life. There is much to be said for each world view. However, it does mean that those in the poorest parts of the American society have little to no chance of moving up or out as they don't actually get any breaks or benefit from the type of welfare system operated in the UK. This isn't to say our system is without faults as it allows people to mooch off the state when work or education opportunities could be available.

This is of course a sweeping generalisation and I know lots of Americans to whom this could not be applied - they would like to see a more liberal approach to welfare introduced to their country.

As for losing this race, let?s see the woman who stood for the Democrats (Martha Coakley) was, to be fair an idiot. Goodness knows how she managed to get herself selected for the role, she was like a liberal version of Palin she said that there are no terrorists were in Afghanistan and mocked shaking voter?s hands. She said that some baseball player was a fan of a team he'd never played for (big mistake apparently) and she went on holiday as the Republican senator was catching her in the polls! Not the best person for the job. Losing this election had very little to do with health care.

The Democrats still have a majority of 17 in the Senate I believe which is the biggest majority they've had for years. Obama needs to strap on a sack and plough through his health care reforms.

ThisIsWhatYouGetFromWatchingCNNTheDailyShowAndReadingBlogsWhilstBf'ingTiggaxx

I see it all the time on forums...'I am a student, I can't afford insurance please diagnose me, as I can't see a PHCP'

it's the same as what happened here when vets and dentists went 'insurance based'

animals got dumped

teeth went rotten

it's just not on.

Oh yes, the poor students, land of opportunity and all that, provided you are prepared to sell even your own blood, if necesary, to get where you want to be.

And land of opportunity should be, I have never seen any other country where students are presented with the facilites to sell their own blood, for money, in campus.

Blood selling is a scandal. That's what gave so many haeomophiliacs HIV (prisoners sold their blood and the prison population was particularly high in people who were HIV+).

Re: Infant Mortality in the USA
This is because of premature births and advanced technical abilities. More (early) pre-mature babies born put on life support than anywhere else in the world. This leads to a higher infant mortality rate.
Sad, but true, but not a damnation of US healthcare.

(I still agree it needs reforming!)

I thought that high infant mortality was linked to a significant % of pg women without insurance and therefore not getting much or any antenatal care. Or is it European propaganda ?

Of course the world is interetested in what's happening in the most powerful country in the world at the moment - just as we're all interested in what's happening in china and india as they are becoming the most powerful countries in the world.

Obama is doing the sensible thing in response - only course of action he could reasonably take.

www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/20/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry6120485.shtml

He is telling Democratic Senators not to "jam through" the legislation before Senator Brown takes office.

They will basically have to go back to the drawing board, and split it up into incremental stages. Much better to have done it that way in the first place I think, rather than an almighty, all-or-nothing, do-or-die type bill.

My point is that if Americans were going round telling other countries how they should be more like Americans there would be uproar.

Good God no Americans would never do that..... no not ever

yeah, I'm sure everyone in South America would be shocked and horrified at the idea that their Northern neighbours could possibly interfere in the running of other countries.