so UKIP want to ban the burkha...

[rosiejoy]

I thought twice about posting this, didnt want to give more attention than necessary to such petty spiteful behaviour.

But then realised its important people know this is being said.

No surprises its a daily mail link

I'd vote for them if they were banning Boden.

I haven't read the whole thread (sorry) but surely not being allowed to wear the burkha is actually going to marginalise Muslim women even more? If they are not allowed to wear a form of dress that makes them comfortable outside their homes, then won't many simply stay at home or cut back severely on their activities? That just seems divisive and non-inclusive, and frankly wrong.

Riven - I do not support banning the niqab - in a free society we are even free to offend each other. We are free to show our legs wearing short skirts and cover our faces...but in our culture generally short skirts are not considered offensive except maybe in church, whereas covering the face inhibits communication and sends a message that the wearer wants to be hidden.

The French study and testimony on the subject whilst considering their own ban found that there is no religious basis for it (which is widely known already), and that it was actually serving as a tool to radicalise women by certain imams, under the pretense of winning them a shred of dignity in their misogynistic and violent communities.
of course that doesn't cover everyone, and may not apply so directly in the UK, but I think there's something in it.
incidentally, women don't usually wear it in their own homes, unless there are unrelated men visiting.

That's the point many women who wear it make neume, they want to be hidden! The wearer sees the wearing of the niqaab, as a thing that is closer to piety and modesty, as it is the face which holds the most beauty and honour. As my good friend (white english revert) told me when i asked years ago why she wore a niqaab, she simply replied, "I don't want another man looking at my face!!"

"incidentally, women don't usually wear it in their own homes.."

REALLY??!!
so you telling me they dont wear it when they shower?? i thought they wore it all the time!!

being tongue in cheek btw!

who could care less whether someone covers their face or not? Am amazed how irate it makes some people.
anyhow, as to why women wear it in the first place, some do it for religious reasons, but for others it's because they get loads of hassle if they don't wear it. that's a bit crap really isn't it - that men can feel free to disrespect you if you're obviously muslim but not wearing a headscarf, you must be easy . So yes, they do want to be hidden but only cos they'll get hassled otherwise. Sadly the solution to that must be rather more complex than just banning women from wearing them.

bigbadmummy - am feeling it is fine to live in saudi if you're a well off foreigner with husband and kids and anice big compound of foreigners to live with. not so great if your the maid being sexually harassed by your employer or the girl who gets her head cut off for adultery (which my saudi mates were enthusiastically endorsing as an appropriate punishment the other day) or the girl who gets whipped for some minor misdemeanor. rose tinted specs?

illgetyoubutler - and that it why it offends me...by hiding the face the wearer puts a barrier between herself and the rest of society - effectively rejecting their values (unless they are all also covering their faces which is not the case in our culture). Can you truly be pious and give offence at the same time?

Your friend's values suggest she thinks that another man looking at her would defile her in some way - ie she thinks men are generally corrupt while she is pure. That actually doesn't seem very modest to me.

mateykatie, i don't think you're right about turkey, btw, at least not according to a doco i saw fairly recently.

some of the mums at our nursery are veiled, they're a bunch of pals who decided to do it in order to be 'more religious', they told me. all of them clever, smart, funny, perfectly ordinary mothers. of course i might be wrong but having met a few of the dads as well i find it hard to believe that they're being pushed into anything.

anyway, the idea of 'saving' women from their own culture by forcing them to adopt 'ours' is bogus, is it not?

obv please read my 'your' as 'you're'

but why people wear it is at the crux of a lot of objections, riven. if the veil is seen as, effectively, a bruise-coverer then i can see why people are squeamish.

that's my experience of the women who wear them too, riv, that they wear them because they want to. but i don't think that's the public perception, i think that many people feel that women are coerced by their husbands and the culture of male superiority. that's why it's important why they're wearing it, because a lot of people are trying to 'save' them, when they don't need saved.

(although tbh from what my brother, a paramedic, says of his calls, i doubt your figs re dv being equal).

lol at db living in bradford. nope, he lives in a normal mixed town with its fair share of rich and poor, black and white etc, and patches up more seriously injured muslim women (he says) than non, perhaps because the kids and other women in the house only phone the ambulance when the men have really fucked up.

from the seriousness of the x-rayed injuries the docs tend to infer that they have been putting up with the situation for a longer time than it would take your average person to lift the phone. believe it or don't believe it, riven, i don't have an axe to grind here, i'm with you when it comes to the burkha or whatever people want to wear. but to return to my original point, to say it doesn't matter why the women wear them is to miss imo a major point of contention.