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Parenting style the key determinant of life chances, says Cameron ...

213 replies

Molesworth · 11/01/2010 14:06

Today David Cameron gave a speech at thinktank Demos as part of their "Character Inquiry". In the speech Cameron refers to research carried out by Demos and makes the following bold claim: "the differences in child outcomes between a child born in poverty and a child born in wealth are no longer statistically significant when both have been raised by 'confident and able parents'."

Policy recommendations include training HVs to assess parent-child attachments and parenting styles.

Details of the inquiry are available here: www.demos.co.uk/projects/the-character-inquiry

And the research paper to which Cameron refers is available to download for free here: www.demos.co.uk/publications/parenting

OP posts:
PeachyWillNeverVoteBNP · 12/01/2010 12:47

I sort of agreeLouby, but kind of wanted to add that whilst poverty does grind- of course it does- it might lower the optimumaprenting formany, but that doesn't necessarily equate to bad aprenting: poverty does not inescapably mean bad parenting. It might mean the odds are higher against it than if you can send your kids away don't have that stress and insecurity level

Louby3000 · 12/01/2010 12:50

Yes, there are no absolutes Peachy, but for DC to side step and say, look its not about finacial outcomes, its how you are just makes me see red.

scarletlilybug · 12/01/2010 13:14

Louby3000, you pretty much paraphrased Cameron in your 12.38 post.

"Of course there's a link between material poverty and poor life chances, but the full picture is that that link also runs through the style of parenting that children in poor households receive. Because the research shows that while the style of responsible parenting I?ve spoken about today is more likely to occur in wealthier households, children in poor households who are raised with that style of parenting do just as well.

And successful parenting style in wealthier families occurs not because these people are intrinsically better, or that they love their children more. It is because with poverty can come a host of other problems that make parenting more difficult. Worse schools, higher crime, bad housing. Unemployment. Problems with alcohol and drugs. Mental health conditions. The wearying grind of worry about debt."
Here.

I was also interested to see Frank Field and Camila Batmanghelidjh sharing a platform with him.

The sad fact is that after 12 years of New Labour, social mobility has decreased and our children are at the bottom of the OECD's child welfare table. It seems clear to me that more of the same isn't going to solve the country's problems.

PeachyWillNeverVoteBNP · 12/01/2010 13:36

Absolutely Loub

But the problem is where the financesare used,they allow the things that work togounder and pump money into asyou say, more of the same.

It doesn't take a genius to work out how to move things along and it would almost certainly cost less, but it would take a complete shift on policy.

Get out there and see who is already changing things- what colleges aremanagingwell with single mums or sencond chance students? What is it they need- access fund provision is faloing but if that is covering childcare you can't expect people to magic it up.

Don't expect people to go italone and break their own ground- if someone wants to be the fitrst in their family to goto Uni great,provide them with a similar mentor.Show them how the problemscan be solved.

Find a way around short termleasesmaking people homeless every six months, becuase no person can reasonably copewith that and aprent at optimum level. Help the carers before they collapserather than only offering crisis services.

Make sure that no more homestart or other parenting support netwroks go under,the last figure I ahd was every poundspent of HS saves SSD £8 orsimilar; give them a few extra quid and who knows what could happen!

But making people feel their parenting ispoor by default,or they are to blame.... that saps confidence and directly robs people of the ability to make change. Not everyone is going to manage it for allsorts of reasons, but even a few feet along the path might change things for the next generation.
Unfortuantely as every Government knows theymight not be in power then, so anything beyond 5 years (or less depending on when election is) is worthless to them.

Avray · 12/01/2010 13:46

I do try not to put everything down to either parenting or social class but really, Winston Churchill was a pretty successful person and I don't think I'm sticking my neck out too far saying his parents probably wouldn't have won any model parent competitions. They went with the prevailing fashions of the time much as we are obliged to do.

scarletlilybug · 12/01/2010 13:50

"But making people feel their parenting is poor by default,or they are to blame.... that saps confidence and directly robs people of the ability to make change."

I agree with that. But I also think there is a danger implicitly telling people that they can't do anything for themselves to improve their lot, that only "the Government" or "the Council" ot "The Social" can help them. I think we are engendering a culture of "learned helplessness" among the poorer classes.

smallwhitecat · 12/01/2010 13:53

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Message withdrawn

PeachyWillNeverVoteBNP · 12/01/2010 14:12

That's true SWC but thats a very small minority:when people who are in power (and i've been very good and avoided any party bias today) take on a topic they make it sound widespread; attachment disorders are not, they are rather rare. Far, far rarer than under achievement and a ghettoised childhood.

When there are clinical disorders and measurable factors in palce, its a different story; thiscan still be addressed however and IME (broad but not endless) those famillies are still doing their best, but often battling their own demons of one kind or another.

And its right that learned helplessness is another demon, but the key is showing people how to help themselves. At the risk of banging on about mentoring, they key was to show people where to go for info, how to dress for an interview, write a good letter, where childcare could be found, how tolog onto the library PC,or make a healthy meal..... then thy could pass those skillson themselves and you had a trickle down effect

If you give people the tools and they don't put them into place, then you are going to have to look at why*, but its wrong to suddenly turn around and say these are the tools you need- why haven't you got them? The same cycle we are wanting to break with their kids is the one they are probably most likely to be a 'victim' of themselves.

We ahve to be clear who wearemeaning here;I know a lot of people in my life that would see anyone not fitting a narrow phenotype as being included,when actually really this has torelateto people who ahve never workedor never inted to; not the carers, sick,lowe arners working damn hard but still needing a bit of support opr hosuing to help them out- neither those who have workedhard but have taken a bad absh and are rebuilding. It has tobe aimed only at those who really don'tcareand never takeany responsibility forthemselves at all. they arefew but real, and if that can happen then the collaterel damage to other poorer people that I fear is't an issue. You have to be seriously naive to think there are no pooraprents who arenevergoing to enable their kids in any way at all:you have to be equally as daft to think that poverty is a lone indicator of that.

*the asterisk was a note to post a reminder that these societal groups are by default proportionately more likely to contain a larger group of peoplewith low level SN or similar who whilst not functioning at optimum level(and probably never identified formally) aren't there through any reasons of their own making. It stands t oreason that if your skills don't enable you to hold down a job, budget, or relationship for long, then you will end up more vulnerable to extreme poverty and insecurity, but the challenges there are different.

policygarry · 12/01/2010 14:13

Peachyyyyy, you are being called for on the sticky thread about David Willetts.

ladymarian · 12/01/2010 14:15

god help us if health visitors are to be responsible for this!! The ones at my doctors surgery are so inept and unprofessional it is scary

Molesworth · 12/01/2010 15:15

Excellent and interesting post(s), peachy

OP posts:
smallwhitecat · 12/01/2010 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

edam · 12/01/2010 16:58

smallwhite - agree about the need to improve HV training and professional development, not get rid of them. BUT my concern is Cameron always trots out HVs as his solution to the ills of modern parenting - without appearing to notice that they ain't necessarily perfect. Despite apparently having people keeping an eye on MN...

mathanxiety · 12/01/2010 17:06

Having had my children in the US where there are no HVs or anything comparable, I have to say I'd have killed for someone to come knocking at my door. They definitely should be trained better, judging from many comments on MN (not necessarily representative, but all the same some seem to be less than ideal) and professional development, better pay, etc., might help. You can't get away from spending a bit if you want to see improvement, despite what conservative opinion might lead you to believe.

wicked · 12/01/2010 17:07

Why do some people think that good parenting can't work?

Take two families on sink estates, non-working, poor educational background, etc. One plays computer games all day while the kids bring themselves up. The other eats with their children, plays with them, sticks with the father, supports the school. Which children are better off? Is it really rocket science?

I always thought that if each generation did a little bit better than the last, they did well. Now it seems that the expectation is to get everything on a plate for no effort. Life's not like that.

There's an oft-quoted proverb - give the man a fish and feed him for a day; give him a fishing rod and feed him for life. Gordon Brown wants to give them fish, but David Cameron wants to give them a fishing rod. I know what I think to be better.

Molesworth · 12/01/2010 17:14

I'm sure we'd all agree with you, Wicked, if anyone on this thread had suggested anything of the sort. Which they haven't

OP posts:
wicked · 12/01/2010 17:15

I see mostly negativity to the concept.

Molesworth · 12/01/2010 17:20

Negativity towards Cameron's spin on the research and the policy recommendations, perhaps, but not one person has denied that good parenting has a positive impact on a child's life chances.

OP posts:
wicked · 12/01/2010 17:31

So the problem is that you just don't like Cameron.

His words are fine though.

If the spin had come from Gordo, then you would have nodded sagely - well 12 years ago, you might have. He's had all that time to act and he and his cronies have only made things worse.

scarletlilybug · 12/01/2010 17:34

I think we've seen a lot of kneejertk reactions from people who haven't read either the report or the speech about it properly.

atlantis · 12/01/2010 17:35

"Negativity towards Cameron's spin "

And of course if Gordon Brown had said it he would have been an enlightened saint.

Molesworth · 12/01/2010 17:35

I don't like Cameron but that's not why I'm criticising it: I'd say the same if it came from Gordon Brown. I have read both the speech and the research paper, by the way.

OP posts:
wicked · 12/01/2010 17:38

How can you not believe that good parenting is key?

I'm stunned by anyone who doesn't believe this.

We have proven that throwing money at the problem doesn't work.

atlantis · 12/01/2010 17:38

X posts wicked

mathanxiety · 12/01/2010 17:40

Seen a good deal of efforts to lay all of society's ills at the doorstep of New Lab, and that's for sure. Not very subtle efforts either.