clegg says no to the baby trainers

[zippyzapper]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6982398.ece

wowie - i might even vote lib deb - go on clegg take on gina and her baby training madness. Anyone else agree?

"due to how we parent during the entire 18 years of parenting we do before dc become adults so plenty of scope for you to stuff up yet."

That's nice dear, but I think i'm past that my eldest is in his 20's and I have grandbabies, so that time has past.

"You do talk crap Atlantis."

And you kiss your children with that mouth?

"Why should everybody parent your way Atlantis?"

No one said you had too. A little touchy aren't we?

" instead of enduring nights and days of sleepless hell."

Yes some people can't take sleep deprevation while others are just happy to spend every minute with their child.

" Prior to this they woke to a sobbing wreck of a mother "

Not my place to comment on this.

"It's horses for courses regarding parenting we and our babies are all different,one size does not fit all. "

which is what I said if you had bothered to read my post instead of waving the GF fanclub banner.

"How arrogant to assume your way is the best and only way. "

Actually again, I didn't, the only one who assumes their way is the right way is GF and you, otherwise you wouldn't be attacking now would you.

So I can't take sleep deprivation big deal I have many other fantastic qualities as a mother, you can't be perfect at everything.

And no having given up my career to raise my 3 under 18 months children no I didn't relish spending every single minute with them at night having spent every single minute with them during the day.

Personally I don't think relishing every single minute with children is actually normal or preferable. Many mums choose to work some not we do what suits us "being happy to spend every minute with your child" isn't something to brag about-we are who we are with different life circumstances.

No it isn't your place to comment on my being "a sobbing wreck of a mother". Many mothers find new babies hard it's not something to pass judgement on it's a fact and no big deal. I sailed through the terrible 2's even though I had 3 going through it at the same time, wouldn't expect others to do the same and certainly wouldn't pass judgement or comment on it. We all have different babies and personalities.

I'm attacking your arrogant view that mums following GF shouldn't become parents and their Ddc will have 'issues' both totally ridiculous statements. I have no idea or wish to know how you parent.

i have to put my two-penn'orth in.

i don't have children yet, but i once flicked through a copy of GF's book when at work (it was a damaged copy and i was interested). i was very shocked at how prescriptive it was and how demanding.

i just can't believe that any little tiny baby can perform to routine in the way she demands!

i'm not saying all of her methods are crap, because if you really are at the end of your tether, it does make some sense, but i can only imagine using it as a rough basis for getting yourself back on track when you can't cope any more.
i feel it's like that NSPCC advert "miles has learnt not to cry because he knows no one will come to him if he does".

and I love Nick Clegg as the leader of the Libdems and i think he's the only way forward for this country.
someone who says the truth rather than saying what he thinks his spin-doctors would approve.

As you say Nickel you don't have kids yet.

When you do GF you don't leave them wailing for hours like in an NSPCC ad that's just headline spin.

The most I left mine was 5 or 6 mins and because they'd been fed,stimulated, changed and were in a routine that only happened in the first few days after which they settled into the routine very quickly. The minute I put them down after the 1st couple of weeks they snuggled down or played with their feet, they never cried they loved their cots and nap time being totally ready for it.

After my babies had been fed,changed cuddled and played with and were over tired they needed sleep and didn't need picking up at the nearest whimper.

I had twins so one of mine always had to wait anyhow. When dd came along 15 months later she often had to wait to be picked up if I was in the middle of something and had to make her brothers safe. Most 2nd 3rd or 4th babies will get left at some time in their lives it's life.

MilaMae - you do come across as a typical GFer. You're very touchy indeed. Everyone has the right to express an opinion including childless MNers, and btw did you miss that the mighty Gina Ford has no children? Yet you're happy to follow her advice and rule?

that should be 'rules'

If Nickel has the years of experience with young babies and new mums that GF has I apologise, I was assuming she hadn't.

I'm touchy about being told I shouldn't have had children and that my children will have "issues". You'll note others found such comments offensive.

hmmmm I think Nick Clegg knew exactly what he was doing here trying to win the Mummy vote - fair play too it's one of the shrewdest, most calculating moves he's made. I'm only surprised that Dave didn't beat him to it.

I'm afraid that if NC really did "subcontract his parental instinct to a book" then he's a prat. I don't understand why everyone gets so wound up about routiny type manuals - just use them as a reference from time to time and take what you want from them.

They can be handy as sometimes they'll think of something that you wouldn't. Am I the only person who will admit to not having this great parenting "instinct"? When DS was born I knew I loved him and wanted to care for him but I didn't just "know" what to do. We figured it out together through trial and error!

I was clueless Was and that was after 7 years of IVf trying to be a parent

Funnily enough in my baby group I can remember many conversations on the not knowing "what" to do(and many tears over cups of tea). Seen enough threads on here to know it's pretty common and normal.

I'm thinking Lib Dem must be desperate to resort to telling us all how NC parents(who gives a shit) will make me think twice about wasting my vote and voting for them.

"and their Ddc will have 'issues' both totally ridiculous statements."

Well the book was first sold in 1999, so well have to wait a while longer to see just how damaging her theories are for this gneration wont we.

Does GF have anything to say about the physical response a mother has when her baby cries? I am not having a go here, I haven't read it, don't care what other people do. But does she address the way your heartrate increases/milk starts to let down if it isn't the "right" time? This happened everytime DS cried under about 6 months, my body reacted way before my brain ever did.

How on earth is a week of being left to cry for 5 minutes longer than normal in a baby's life going to be "damaging" in later life? Especially when said babies enjoy a life filled with cuddles, play and adoring parents.

Don't think I'll hold my breath.

MilaMae: i know the nspcc headline isn't the same thing, i was just postulating, promise!

as i said, no experience myself, but can see the benefit if you're at the end of your tether.

i just know that if i spend time thinking about how i feel about GF's methods then sod's law i'll be following it to the letter because i can't cope with the bloody crying and crying and crying
hoping that won't happen, but as has been mentioned, Gina doesn't have children either, so she's talking purely from the point of view of a 3rd party.

but it is a worthwhile debate.

MilaMae - in the first edition of her book, Gina gave examples of babies being left to cry for much longer than five minutes. A week of hours at a time springs to memory (four hours the first night). And if you follow her very demanding and restrictive timetable, you won't be doing any cuddling at night (not even making eye contact) or have time for much play in the day. You'll be too busy making sure you are eating a piece of toast at precisely 7.49 am and expressing 3oz from your left breast ten minutes later...

Nowt wrong with a routine that suits an individual mother (and father) and their individual baby. A lot wrong with a book that tries to impose one very detailed regime on every baby and contradicts all the evidence on breast-feeding. (Although she may have improved that in recent editions, I don't know.)

Niklebabe I know it will be sod's law.

Believe me it's so different when they're here. You have all these plans and dreams of what you'll be like as a mum before then day 10 you're sat there in your dressing gown zombiefied covered in chunder at 4pm vaguely remembering you had a career once.

It is a shock but really worth it,being a mum is the thing I'm most proud of being. It's just not all hearts and flowers that's all. You have your fantastic days and your crap ultimately you know what's best for your child and you do what suits your child and your family.

Good luck, are you expecting? Getting as much knowledge as you can about the realities is a good thing to do,wished I'd had MN before my 3 were born. All I had was a few magazines with fuzzy articles that gave very little insight to the realities of parenthood.

Can't comment on that Edam as no idea what edition I had and it's long since been passed on. Have to say mine wouldn't have hollered for 4 hours would be surprised if any baby did after a play,feed and change.

We had a rough first couple of nights but the benefits we gained made it all worth it. My dc were experiencing a lot of stress with me sobbing in frustration, dreading them waking, they could smell and feel it. I made the decision that I didn't want them to experience weeks of my anguish, either way those few nights were going to be hell whatever we did.

There is plenty of time to play in the day that's the whole point. You play and knacker them out in the day,they sleep at night more. I had lovely play sessions which were suggested throughout the routine. My dc didn't want to be cuddled at night they were right next to me until dd was born and I certainly wasn't in the mood either after a day filled with twin activity and pregnancy hormones. As a family we thrive on sleep,we're all happier when we get it. I know this is true for a lot of other mums and kids too.

All I know is after being fed,changed,played with before putting down my dc crashed very quickly. I had many friends who followed GF who found the same, none of us had to resort to long periods of crying. The whole point of the routine is if you follow it they're ready to sleep which mine did.

GF may not suit all babies and all parents. I know several styles of parenting which wouldn't suit us AP being one. Even though I have my own thoughts on different styles I wouldn't judge or comment on what I haven't actually tried. If AP works for other mums and makes their family happy good luck to them.

" I wouldn't judge or comment on what I haven't actually tried."

"Why should everybody parent your way Atlantis?"

"You do talk crap Atlantis."

"Personally I don't think relishing every single minute with children is actually normal or preferable."

""being happy to spend every minute with your child" isn't something to brag about-"

"I have no idea or wish to know how you parent. "

"If Nickel has the years of experience with young babies and new mums that GF has I apologise, I was assuming she hadn't."

Hmmm, wouldn't judge or comment ey?

Whatever atlantis

"Whatever atlantis "

Hmm, thought so.

[Bored with atlantis emoticon]

I never got close to achieving GF type routines, but her book was useful to me, for example, knowing how much you might expect your baby to sleep during the day is useful information not something you just know instinctively. Anyone who thinks they are too good for parenting books, well done you, but I remain

I personally found GF and the GF-lite Babywhisperer horrible. Really unpleasant books. But then, I pander to my babies. DS2 is 12 months, sleeps in my bed, BFs on demand, naps when he falls in the day... he's the happiest baby ever.

Some people like routine, some don't. I don't. The prescriptive nature of the above books ignited my inner rebel. If you crave order and routine though, I suppose those manuals can provide you with a framework, babies are not instinctively routine led (other than a loose eat-sleep-poo-play-eat cycle, subject to change at no notice!)