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Mum on the run goes to Spain

339 replies

johnhemming · 12/12/2009 18:14

This is a story of a couple going to spain to avoid the removal of a baby at birth.

I know concern in parliament about the failures of the family courts is growing. However, there really should not be any toleration of a system whereby people have to emigrate to avoid the removal and adoption of their children.

I track a lot of cases that are not in the media. It really is that bad.

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johnhemming · 16/12/2009 20:16

leningrotto if you saw what I see you would use the word evil (for the system not the practitioners).

I had a meeting with the ministers on Monday about this. They don't really get it.

The best hope for a massive shift is the inquiry in the council of europe. I think there has been some shifting recently in the domestic courts. We have won a few cases recently that we would have lost last year.

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staggerlee · 16/12/2009 20:23

I don't get it either jh. Can you describe which cases you've won and why or maybe post any links?. I genuinely would like to understand where you are coming from.

I do wonder why practitioners would choose to work in an 'evil' system and would like your views on that too.

LeninGrotto · 16/12/2009 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ilovemydogandmrobama · 16/12/2009 20:27

JH -- you need Keir Starmer's Human Rights manual. It's a really good guide/reference.

LeninGrotto · 16/12/2009 20:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

johnhemming · 16/12/2009 20:32

staggerlee "I don't get it either jh. Can you describe which cases you've won and why or maybe post any links?. I genuinely would like to understand where you are coming from."

You should know that it is contempt of court to give more details of issues in the court of first instance.

There is one court of appeal judgment that has recently been published.
here

We won on one point and lost on another.

People can be happy working in a system which is evil because they themselves believe what they are doing is good. Additionally cognitive dissonance kicks in.

There are good practitioners doing a good job. My criticism is directed towards the way the system works because it drives people towards doing things that are wrong.

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johnhemming · 16/12/2009 20:35

leningrotto Your analsis in terms of how we deal with problems has merit. However, we need to try to avoid the problems in the first instance.

Speaking to my local Homestart and SureStart units they see many problems caused by bad housing (I have been given figures of 50% to 75%), We are not talking here about the sexual abuse type cases, but about the ones which are families in crisis.

The system has a tendency to bring out a hammer and hit the family with it. (A phrase suggested to me by a social worker). This is not really such a good way of doing things.

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staggerlee · 16/12/2009 20:51

jh,I know that as much as you protest about closed courts it also allows you to infer pretty much anything you want but give no evidence to back it up.

I think its pretty impossible to be happy working in an 'evil system'. Cognitive dissonance kicks in?? Again where is your evidence for this?

On the contrary I think social work demands a reflective approach with an emphasis on self awareness and reflective practice. I'm not suggesting all social workers are great at this but in my experience its an integral part of the supervision process.

LaDiDaDi · 16/12/2009 20:55

Finally finished reading this thread.

I tend to agree with wannabe's posts and I'm surprised at the way that she has been addressed by JH.

JH, I'm uncertain as to the point of the link that you posted above? I can see that it is the results of an appeal in which the right of the mother to have an independent SW assessment is turned down and her right to be represented by MissHaines is upheld but I struggle to see how it illustrates the points that you are trying to make in your posts. Could you explain?

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:08

Hobbgoblin, it was this that confused me:

'Personally, I feel that SS are so acutely aware of their failings and inability to do the job well that this creates a preference for dismissing the CAF procedures and continuing to exploit the 'need to know' basis upon which information is shared'.

My point was that it is not a tool for CP and therefore is not relevant to CP in terms of an assessment or framework for intervention. However, I completely agree that it is relevant for early intervention and lower threshold work. The challenge for my team is how we 'step up' and 'step down' to CAF as ime most professionals are keen for social workers to be lead professionals to avoid holding any risk themselves. My team are having some success in linking in to avoid escalation to my team I personally think this is very good practice.

I think the problem is that CAF in under utilised and this is unfair to families. However, this is not attributable to front line CP teams, we would LOVE for the services to be provided at this level and we think this is most appropriate and helpful for children. I wish there were more social worker based in the community to support this process (as we are the best trained in the area of identifying and delivering family support) but the constant high threshold work means that we need to deploy our qualified workers to the areas of greatest risk and need.

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:12

JH, I agee with LAdidadi -your link doesn't really explain very much in terms of the 'evil' of the system. It appears to have worked pretty well in relation to the LA.

it is a shame that the mother didn't feel able to instruct another legal representative to act on her behalf, as this would appear to have been in her best interests. Mrs Haines could have supported her in these instructions and made use of the expertise of the lawyer. Why did the mother not have these benefits? Could you not help her to see this as a good way forward?

johnhemming · 16/12/2009 21:14

The point of the link is it answers a question asked by staggerlee

It doesn't really subtantiate much, it merely makes the point that we have won at least one case in the CoA.

Cases like the one in this thread, The RSPCA case, the Norfolk cases, Fran Lyon, Angela Wileman substantiate my thesis.

I have about 800 cases now. We have, in fact, won some of those cases and families have not been split up or children have been returned.

However, that does not mean that there are not lots of really awful things still going on.

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wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:17

Can you answer my question about Mrs Haines and not seeking another legal representative?

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:18

Otherwise it seems that all you won was the right for the client to be poorly represented.

staggerlee · 16/12/2009 21:24

jh, I was hoping you could give me examples validating your assertions about the evil system. Unfortunately not.

However I'd also be really interested in your reply to wahwahs question.

johnhemming · 16/12/2009 21:27

Do you want me to get the mother concerned or Julie Haines to join the discussion. That might be the best way of answering your questions.

Julie is doing very well with lots of cases. She wins cases that most family law solicitors would lose.

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wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:38

without being evasive, I'm not sure of the ethics of me speaking to people who are direclty engaged in care proceedings about what is going on. I think that might place all of us in a dubious position.

I am pleased to hear that Mrs Haines is an effective representative, but given her legal skills, would she not think that her client would be best represented by a lawyer, with her acting to support her client?

atlantis · 16/12/2009 21:39

I have been a MK friend and I have also been LIP on my own Private law case ( a case I won after firing my legal rep because she wouldn't argue evidence or put points forward)and although MK friends know the law they are not bound by it's rigors.

In my own case I was able to put before the court evidence I wanted the judge to read that day and have fresh in his mind in my position statement, something a barrister would not do.

I made no backroom deals with opposing counsel as barristers do and then go on to sell it to their client as the best or only real option and I would certainly never tell a parent to sign their rights away so that the ss will 'possibly' allow them to see their child, which then doesn't happen and they deny.

I would never allow time for a status quo to develop where the mother has little to no contact with their child and is allowed to be edged out by ss, unlike a barrister who will sit back and do nothing until a hearing.

MK friends win better outcomes for their 'clients' in family law than solicitors do.

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:40

and I mean in your opinion, I don't want to have a direct conversation with Mrs Haines for the reasons I've outlined.

lottieC · 16/12/2009 21:41

lol should it not be nuns on the run!!

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:43

Thanks, Atlantis. Your prspective is interesting. From the 'other side' I hate the lawyer huddle that can develop. However I also instruct that I do not want this to happen. Do you think there would be greater benefits to parents having an advocate AND a lawyer?

wahwah · 16/12/2009 21:45

I shall try and catch up tomorrow, if I don't post any more tonight it's not lack of interest...

atlantis · 16/12/2009 21:45

" Do you think there would be greater benefits to parents having an advocate AND a lawyer? "

No the lawyer will always be seen by the court as being the lead role and the judge would expect the lawyer to counsel the advocate in what is permissable, tying the advocates hands.

johnhemming · 16/12/2009 22:08

There is a big problem changing lawyer in that the LSC will often not fund the new lawyer and also there is a problem with splitting the budget even if it is agreed.

However, Julie is particularly good.

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cory · 17/12/2009 09:11

My own (thankfully) limited experience and reading suggest that there is often an interplay between different professions in these factitious disorder cases. Sometimes an over-excited doctor will run away with the idea, sometimes he may be getting (incorrect) data from other individuals mixed up in the case. As this is not an illness in the ordinary sense, he can't just do his own examination and say, yes, this patient has a pulse rate of X or blue spots on their tongue, and therefore it's a case of MSBP. It is partly an exlusion diagnosis ("I can't find anything else"), partly based on social judgment of the parents- and in the latter area, he may well listen to the other experts, such as SWs.

He may have to rely on information provided by SWs as to how these people interact with the child, and they in their turn will have to rely on him for the medical judgment. In this respect, it is far less a medical diagnosis, and more of a social one.

The reason our own case did not to to court was twofold: a mental health nurse made the judgment that we weren't really that kind of family, and we were fortunate enough already to have an appointment with another specialist, so did not have to rely on the doubting doctor for a referral.

The second time trouble brewed, it was a headteacher who believed we were causing dd's problems- he was firmly quelled by sensible SWs who refused to act. I am very grateful for those SWs.

What we can learn from those old abuse cases, is that sometimes SWs and doctors ended up in a kind of folie a deux (or trois or quatre) where they were egging each other on to believe more and more impossible things, and that it was in this interface that sometimes professional judgment got blurred. The only thing I can see that would help would be for each part to try to be as informed as possible about the limitations of the expertise of the others- and of course, this is where a good judge could also do wonders.

In factitious disorder cases, it would help enormously if doctors were more honest about their limitations, and if a very clear distinction was made between parents who could reasonably be believed to have harmed their children and parents who were simply voicing a different opinion to the doctor. Putting a mother who is actively poisoning her child into the same category as an over-anxious mother who worries that her child may be seriously ill, is just ludicrous.

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